# Why is the 'R' difficult? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 5, 2018, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998 "2018-11-05T11:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/21 "2018-11-06T16:05:34Z")
That’s why Orissa came to be Odisha ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/22 "2018-11-06T20:28:04Z")
And then there are women named “Sarah” who pronounce their name (it seems to me) as “Sadah”. An Hispanic thing, maybe?? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/23 "2018-11-06T20:38:35Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > One of the defining characteristics (perhaps the defining characteristic) of a Catalan accent when speaking Spanish is precisely that the Ls are different in both languages; in most Catalan dialects, the L “moves to the ceiling” (it’s palatal vs the alveolar version of Spanish). > > Thanks to[this person](https://www.velabas.com/writing/language/how-catalan-different-from-spanish/) who thinks Spanish ortography is actually easier than it is, and who pointed out that both Ls are found in Portuguese, I was able to find the two IPA symbols: Spanish /l/, Catalan /ʎ/. For some reason the listings I find when searching for Catalan phonetics always say /l/, which is definitely not right. That /ʎ/ is the (older) pronunciation of ll in Spanish, and of lh in Portuguese. I don’t perceive it as an L sound at all. I wonder if what you are hearing as distinctive in Catalan is a dark L? If you say the Catalan L, do you raise the _back_ of your tongue towards the roof of your mouth? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/24 "2018-11-06T21:53:30Z")
One of the worldwide patterns mapped by the sound /r/ is the resistance to starting words with it. Here is a list of languages known to exclude initial /r/- from their phonological inventory: Basque Bengali (Kamarupa dialect) Chalcatongo Mixtec Golin Guugu Yimidhirr Hadiyya Hittite Hungarian (old) Hurrian Iberian Iraqw Japanese (old) Kayardild Korean Koromfe Kuman Louisiana French (Platte Ville dialect) Mbabaram Minoan Mongolic Niuean Piro Pitta-Pitta Samoyed: Nganasan, Selkup Sardinian (Campidanian dialect) Tamil Telefol Tungus-Manchu Turkic West Greenlandic Yeniseian Often the older attested forms of the above languages exclude initial /r/-, while more modern phases of the languages have accepted it. Even then, some old traces remain. For example, the Hungarian name for Russia is _Orosz_. It derives from the Slavic root \*ros- for ‘Russia’, plus an extra /o/- on the front so it can be pronounced without an initial /r/-. This prothetic (stuck in front) vowel /o/- dates from a time when the Magyar speakers of Old Hungarian had recently encountered the Kievan Rus’ nation in the Volga steppes during the 9th century. Before the Magyars settled farther west in what became Hungary. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/25 "2018-11-07T02:51:06Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > One of the worldwide patterns mapped by the sound /r/ is the resistance to starting words with it. Did not know. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/26 "2018-11-07T03:21:50Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > That /ʎ/ is the (older) pronunciation of ll in Spanish, and of lh in Portuguese. I don’t perceive it as an L sound at all. > > I wonder if what you are hearing as distinctive in Catalan is a dark L? If you say the Catalan L, do you raise the _back_ of your tongue towards the roof of your mouth? The middle, the back tries to go to the throat. In Spanish we say that Catalan “tries to swallow the L”. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/27 "2018-11-07T03:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > One of the worldwide patterns mapped by the sound /r/ is the resistance to starting words with it. Here is a list of languages known to exclude initial /r/- from their phonological inventory: Scooby Doo must be translated differently in those languages. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/28 "2018-11-07T05:29:54Z")
The ancient Romans called R the dog letter, _littera canina_. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/29 "2018-11-07T16:18:11Z")
When a Brit says “sorry” it sounds to me like “soddy”. Since “l” has also been mentioned, I am reminded of the fact that I was looking at a book that supposedly described all the variants of English pronunciation. When I came to the statement that “‘l’ is lateral in virtually all dialects of English”, I stopped reading the book. Just for the record, in my dialect (but I am under the impression that this is pretty widespread in the US), the first letter in “lateral” is lateral and last letter isn’t. In the quoted sentence, about half of the "l"s are lateral. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/30 "2018-11-07T16:56:04Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > When a Brit says “sorry” it sounds to me like “soddy”. Yep, that’s the intervocalic alveolar flap — [sɒɾɪ] As opposed to American [sɑri] ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/31 "2018-11-07T16:56:05Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The ancient Romans called R the dog letter, _littera canina_. “History and Etymology for dog’s letter - translation of Latin littera canina; from the fancied resemblance of the trilled r to the growl of a dog” > **[Definition of DOG'S LETTER](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dog's%20letter)** > > the letter r… See the full definition Well, I guess that tells us a bit about how ancient Latin was pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/32 "2018-11-07T17:14:50Z")
Once in Mexico City’s airport, I saw an ad that jokingly quoted someone saying “_ **mejsí** _.” The figure was standing in front of the Eiffel Tower. I realized the Spanish letter _j_ was not a bad way to represent the French **r** sound. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/33 "2018-11-07T17:23:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yep, that’s the intervocalic alveolar flap — [sɒɾɪ] > > As opposed to American [sɑri] Sorry, that last one should be [sɑɹi] ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/34 "2018-11-07T22:30:09Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The middle, the back tries to go to the throat. In Spanish we say that Catalan “tries to swallow the L”. In that case, based on your description, I would say the difference is that Catalan speakers use a dark L in contexts where a speaker of Castilian Spanish does not. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/35 "2018-11-07T22:32:55Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > When a Brit says “sorry” it sounds to me like “soddy”. I occasionally see the terms “veddy proper” or “veddy British,” which play on that pronunciation (“veddy” being what “very” sounds like in a veddy proper British accent). ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/36 "2018-11-08T16:20:24Z")
> [@](#): > > One of the worldwide patterns mapped by the sound /r/ is the resistance to starting words with it. Here is a list of languages known to exclude initial /r/- from their phonological inventory: You could add some of the Ghanaian languages to that list. My son’s name starts with R, his African grandmother has never been able to pronounce it, she adds a vowel first. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/37 "2018-11-09T03:59:43Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > You could add some of the Ghanaian languages to that list. My son’s name starts with R, his African grandmother has never been able to pronounce it, she adds a vowel first. Thanks for the tip! Which Ghanaian languages are those? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/38 "2018-11-09T04:01:15Z")
My grandson is Ghanaian-American and his name starts with R, but then he’s a native speaker of English. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/39 "2018-11-09T15:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Thanks for the tip! Which Ghanaian languages are those? Waali, maybe Sissala too. Waali has an “r” sound, for example lejaare - twenty, or kogri - benches, but it doesn’t seem to have words that start with “r” ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2018, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998/40 "2018-11-12T04:12:19Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > Waali, maybe Sissala too. Waali has an “r” sound, for example lejaare - twenty, or kogri - benches, but it doesn’t seem to have words that start with “r” That’s been confirmed for Sissala: page 57 of this study: [https://commons.emich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://en.wikipedia.org/&httpsredir=1&article=1072&context=theses](https://commons.emich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://en.wikipedia.org/&httpsredir=1&article=1072&context=theses) Good catch! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-r-difficult/823998.md?page=3)