# Why is the Speaker of the House 2nd in line and not a senator? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 25, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485 "2013-07-25T15:37:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/21 "2013-07-25T16:43:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m just curious where they get 52 presidents. By my count there are only 44, and one of them is getting counted twice. Are they including the pre constitution ones? > **[The First President of the United States, John Hanson, and more. Wayne Twp....](https://www.oneandonlypresidentialmuseum.com/)** > > Presidential Museum - Hartsgrove, Ohio ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/22 "2013-07-25T17:14:17Z")
Back in high school, I was told that this is because the Senate is lead by the Vice President, who is already first in line should the big guy croak. Thus, it makes sense that the leader of the House should follow him. The PPT is the “backup leader,” who only leads the Senate when the VP is in Chicago or Topeka or wherever giving a policy speech that nobody listens to. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/23 "2013-07-25T17:39:25Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > [http://www.oneandonlypresidentialmuseum.com/](http://www.oneandonlypresidentialmuseum.com/) Interesting. Apparently, he’s counting the eight presidents of the Continental Congress who were elected after the Articles of Confederation were ratified. However, this seems a bit arbitrary, as noted in the [Wikipedia article on John Hanson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hanson), the “first president” under this reading: > [@](#): > > According to historian Richard B. Morris, if a president of Congress were to be called the first President of the United States, “a stronger case could be made for Peyton Randolph of Virginia, the first President of the first and second Continental Congresses, or for John Hancock, the President of Congress when that body declared its independence.” The claim that Hanson was a forgotten President of the United States was revived on the Internet, sometimes with a new assertion that he was actually a black man; an anachronistic photograph of Senator John Hanson of Liberia has been used to support this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/24 "2013-07-25T17:51:58Z")
First off, this Atchison obviously never took the oath either. Second, I have read enough about LBJs ascension to know that he **was** president the instant Kennedy died, no matter when he took the oath. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/25 "2013-07-25T18:33:23Z")
> [@UTejas](#): > > Bush’s term expired at noon on January 20th but Obama didn’t take his oath of office at EXACTLY the stroke of noon. Are you going to argue that Nancy Pelosi was president for a couple minutes? Well, … > [@](#): > > **Amendment XX. Section 1.** > The terms of the President and the Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin. > [@](#): > > The 20th Amendment moves the date of inauguration from March to “noon on the 20th day of January.” Under the Constitution, the old president continues to hold full power through 11:59:59, and then power shifts at noon. Article II, Section 1 requires that the new president, before executing any duties, take a prescribed oath or affirmation. To avoid a constitutional power vacuum, the Inauguration Day program is certain to schedule the swearing in for as close as possible to noon. [The Constitution and the Inauguration of the President](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/inaugurationconstit.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/26 "2013-07-25T18:40:16Z")
Little known fact. The Speaker of the House doesn’t have to be a member of Congress at all. Anyone could be chosen for the position. "2. How is the Speaker of the House elected? Article I, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution states, "The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers. Although the Constitution does not require the Speaker to be a Member of the House, all Speakers have been Members." [http://clerk.house.gov/member\_info/memberfaq.aspx](http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/memberfaq.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/27 "2013-07-25T18:48:49Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Well, … > > [The Constitution and the Inauguration of the President](http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/inaugurationconstit.html) As far as I’m aware, there has never been a president who tried to execute any duties between noon on Inauguration Day and the moment he took his oath. Note also that the Constitution states that this post-noon/pre-oath person is still called “the new president”. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/28 "2013-07-25T21:45:45Z")
> [@MikeS](#): > > Apparently, he’s counting the eight presidents of the Continental Congress who were elected after the Articles of Confederation were ratified. However, this seems a bit arbitrary . . . No, it seems wrong. The Presidents of Congress were not Presidents of the United States, never claimed authority as such, and were never referred to as such. They were presidents, yes, but so is the president of my curling club. The fact that this museum is run by an Ambassador of Grand Emminence (sic) tells you all you need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/29 "2013-07-25T21:59:36Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > Years ago the Senate Pro Tem was next in line after the VP, this changed in later years, the Pro Tem is after the Speaker now. > > One tidbit is that Senate Pro Tem, David Rice Atchison was “President for one day” after Zachary Taylor would not take the oath on a sunday. If Zachary Taylor wasn’t president because he did not take the oath, how could Atchison become president without taking the oath? If the theory is that a president does not become president until after taking the oath, then people who did not take the oath are not president. Atchison never took the oath, and was therefore never president. Or, if you can become president even though you haven’t taken the oath, then why wasn’t Zachary Taylor president even though he hadn’t taken the oath quite yet? I don’t care which legal theory you operate under, but you have to be consistent. Consistent application of the rule, either way, means that Atchison was never president. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/30 "2013-07-26T00:35:43Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Back in high school, I was told that this is because the Senate is lead by the Vice President, who is already first in line should the big guy croak. Thus, it makes sense that the leader of the House should follow him. > > The PPT is the “backup leader,” who only leads the Senate when the VP is in Chicago or Topeka or wherever giving a policy speech that nobody listens to. That was the original idea, but the VP ceased active involvement Senate affairs by the 1950s. Modern VPs only ever show up to cast a tiebreaking vote, or to preside over ceremonial stuff like the State of the Union or counting of electoral votes. Also the PPT itself is basically a ceremonial position given to the senior most Senator in the majority party. Which is way back in 2000 a frail nonagenarian & former Dixiecrat was 3rd line to the Presidency at a time when we faced a very real possibility of both POTUS & VPOTUS offices being vacant. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/31 "2013-07-26T00:58:10Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Little known fact. The Speaker of the House doesn’t have to be a member of Congress at all. Anyone could be chosen for the position… Quite impressively and uniquely, Henry Clay was elected Speaker on the very first day of his first term. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485/32 "2013-07-26T01:22:04Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Back in high school, I was told that this is because the Senate is lead by the Vice President, who is already first in line should the big guy croak. Thus, it makes sense that the leader of the House should follow him. > > The PPT is the “backup leader,” who only leads the Senate when the VP is in Chicago or Topeka or wherever giving a policy speech that nobody listens to. This is my understanding. In fact, in the original constitutional concepts, before VP was giving a quasi-executive role and was a running mate selection of the presidential candidate, VP was simply the guy who came second in the electoral college (or house selection… cue the electoral college thread). His job was to run the group of state appointees (the senators) so that no state’s appointee got an advantage in the senate operations, and it gave him something productive(?) to do in the capital. So the list was simple - president, head of senate, head of house. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-speaker-of-the-house-2nd-in-line-and-not-a-senator/664485.md?page=1)