# Why is the US behind educationally? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909 "2012-02-25T02:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/41 "2012-02-27T23:42:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It was a wonderful school, but you wouldn’t have known that based on the scarlet letter that had been brandished on it. What was wonderful about it? Why was it labeled a bad school? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/42 "2012-02-27T23:53:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What was wonderful about it? Because it was my father’s school? And the kids were cute and well-behaved? > [@](#): > > Why was it labeled a bad school? Because most of the children couldn’t speak English and you can’t hide this on a standardized test. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/43 "2012-02-28T02:25:22Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I see what you did there. How about not doing an inferred ad hominem attack and say why we should just pass those kids. Failing kids should be a huge indicator of where resources need to go but I know in my state vs. getting more resources in the community and the school they just dropped the required score. BTW, most non-English speakers may have challenges but outside of the Hispanic group they are actually doing better than Native English speakers on whole in my area of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/44 "2012-02-28T02:25:42Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Pretending everything is alright and dropping the bar to make the numbers better is just as bad. > > If the parents won’t set expectations for the kids us as the community should. I don’t think we should do the former, but that’s definitely happening as a result of NCLB. I think the underlying educational philosophy–get every kid up to a certain minimum standard, no matter what–is fatally flawed. Instead, the standard should be to challenge every kid to fulfill their academic potential to their fullest. Every Child Zoom Ahead, not No Child Left Behind. And yes, we need to set expectations for kids. Part of that needs to be setting expectations for parents. If a kid isn’t sleeping at night because mom and dad are partying all night long, what exactly can a teacher do to make that kid stay awake during class? The whole “it takes a village” thing is something I fundamentally believe in, but sometimes people forget that the parents are a big part of that village. [This blog review of Waiting for Superman](http://teachbad.com/2012/01/10/waiting-for-superman-to-fix-all-these-shitty-parents/) may be a little on the hyperbolic side, but it pulls out parental responsibility in a way that I think gets neglected too often in educational debates. I’m not talking about the responsibility of parents who take responsibility; I’m talking about the ones who are falling down on the job for whatever reason, be it drug use or mental health issues or basic selfishness or whatever. An excerpt: > [@](#): > > Some reformer in some district in California (LA?) was quoting stats from his school. It was something outrageous, like, 60K students had been to this school in 40 years and only 20K had graduated…something crazy like that. And here is his evaluation of these statistics: > > “That’s the damage this school has done to this neighborhood”. > > REALLY!?!?! Are you fucking serious?!!?? > > THAT’S why this neighborhood sucks? Because of the damage done to it by the school? There was no crime, mostly stable families, two parents, solid middle income, a prosperous and diversified commercial sector, strong churches and civic organizations in this part of town…and then the school showed up and ruined it all? You think the school is making your neighborhood suck? Really?!? That’s your argument? Are you stupid, or just a terrible liar? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/45 "2012-02-28T02:26:12Z")
There is a cultural component as well. I have two middle school students. Neither is terribly disciplined when it comes to schoolwork. And we don’t push it. We don’t want them to have childhoods full of math books. My son already dislikes reading, pushing him to do more of it isn’t a solution to get him to love books. There are American Tiger Moms (I worked with one, and her son did end up at Stanford. I’m friends with another). But most of us are trying to balance homework schedules with sports schedules and afterschool activities with plenty of time for our kids to play Modern Warfare 2 and make YouTube videos. And on the other end of the spectrum, you have parents who didn’t much like school themselves and aren’t sure their kids need college anyway. Our son is an [AVID student](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advancement_Via_Individual_Determination). When we went to a program orientation to make sure we as parents supported this, there were a number of parents there who didn’t, and others who didn’t respond to the invitation. You can get your B or C student into a program that is going to put him on a college prep path and you turn it down because he won’t get shop? My understanding is that this is less common in some other developed countries - where it is more common to expect academic excellence, or at least effort. And that’s it for me, I need to go make sure my son finishes the 150 pages he has to read before the end of the tri…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/46 "2012-02-28T02:28:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > If the parents won’t set expectations for the kids us as the community should. > [@andros](#): > > I see what you did there. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > How about not doing an inferred ad hominem attack and say why we should just pass those kids. You missed the joke, I think: he was teasing you about how you say we should set standards for education in a sentence that uses the nonstandard “us” in a place where “we” is standard :). Simple mockery, not an implied (not inferred) ad hominem. Standard Straight Dope fare. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/47 "2012-02-28T02:30:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > How about not doing an inferred ad hominem attack and say why we should just pass those kids. No _ad hominem_ implied or intended. I thought you were making a joke when you said: > [@](#): > > If the parents won’t set expectations for the kids **us** as the community should. [emphasis added] On edit, thanks **LHoD**. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/48 "2012-02-28T02:38:31Z")
> [@andros](#): > > No _ad hominem_ implied or intended. I thought you were making a joke when you said: > On edit, thanks **LHoD**. 🙂 Ah fun with Dysgraphia, I know how it is to have a language disadvantage in school 🙂 I though you were inferring a raciest intent, sorry, I do not believe in the concept of “race” outside of a silly way of people to put people in buckets for little to no reason. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/49 "2012-02-28T02:41:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [What Americans Keep Ignoring About Finland’s School Success](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/) > > I don’t know why I’m bothering to post this article, because it’s not going to change anyone’s minds. Americans are too steeped in the competitive mindset to adopt anything close to what Finland has. You can’t even say the word “equality” without someone yelling “SOCIALISM!” And we all know that’s teh evil. > > Every educational development used in the US has focused on competition. Magnet schools, charter schools, school vouchers, “accountability” testing…the success of all of these rests on inequality. And they perpetuate inequality. We don’t really want to bridge the achievement gaps that exist between groups, though we talk like we do. No, we actually want there to be “bad” schools. For the same reason why an insecure teenage girl chooses an uglier girl to be her friend. We need someone to make us feel good about our position in the hierarchy. > > If the poor school on the other side of town starts getting test scores comparable to the rich school, will there be confetti parades in the streets? No! The tests will simply get harder. > > I’m not an educator, so I don’t know what the solution is. I just know that what we are doing now is not working for the common good. No one really cares about the “common good” any more. To speak of such a thing is to be a giant Commie pinko. Or Rick Santorum, but only when it comes to fetuses and sex. The reason it works in Finland? THEY’RE FINLAND! The never have been. never will be, the most powerful, prosperous natiion on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/50 "2012-02-28T02:52:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Or if 60% of the student body is ESL, does it makes sense to rate it on the same scale as a student body that is 3% ESL? > > My father retired from his job as a principal disillusioned by the system. Consistently, his school was ranked at the bottom when the paper would publish all the school’s NCLB “grades”. His school district was one of the wealthiest in the state, but paradoxically his school served some of the poorest communities in the state. So of course his school was going to look bad when compared to the others! It demoralized his teachers, who were working their hardest but knew they would never be able to change perceptions. And it demoralized the kids, too. Would would want to go to a school everyone thinks is bad? > > It was a wonderful school, but you wouldn’t have known that based on the scarlet letter that had been brandished on it. Or Special Ed for that matter. BTW, **monstro** I completely agree that “white flight” is another factor. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/51 "2012-02-28T02:53:31Z")
Fundamentally, the problem in the US educational system is a lack of parental and community involvement and concern and expectations for the students in poor performing communities. There’s a reason that white kids from the suburbs do well on average; their parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, family friends, friends’ parents and even their friends take a greater or lesser interest in their academic performance and hold them accountable. People talk about where you’re going to go to college- it’s not seen as anything special to graduate high school, and going to college isn’t seen as anything special either. It’s expected. Nobody wants to be considered a “fuckup”, so they put in some effort not to be seen like that. In the poor performing community, there’s less stigma to dropping out, making bad grades, or doing other dumb-ass things like knocking chicks up or getting knocked up. Going to college is generally kind of strange and alien, and definitely not expected or discussed. In short, low expectations breed low performance. The real question is how to get the poor performing communities to value education and expect higher performance, because it’s doubtful that it’s anything other than a lack of expectations and community value of education. I also suspect that Finnish society is much, much more homogenous than the US, and probably values education as a whole much more like the high performing communities in the US. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/52 "2012-02-28T03:00:47Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > There is a cultural component as well. I have two middle school students. Neither is terribly disciplined when it comes to schoolwork. And we don’t push it. We don’t want them to have childhoods full of math books. My son already dislikes reading, pushing him to do more of it isn’t a solution to get him to love books. > > There are American Tiger Moms (I worked with one, and her son did end up at Stanford. I’m friends with another). But most of us are trying to balance homework schedules with sports schedules and afterschool activities with plenty of time for our kids to play Modern Warfare 2 and make YouTube videos. And on the other end of the spectrum, you have parents who didn’t much like school themselves and aren’t sure their kids need college anyway. > > Our son is an [AVID student](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advancement_Via_Individual_Determination). When we went to a program orientation to make sure we as parents supported this, there were a number of parents there who didn’t, and others who didn’t respond to the invitation. You can get your B or C student into a program that is going to put him on a college prep path and you turn it down because he won’t get shop? > > My understanding is that this is less common in some other developed countries - where it is more common to expect academic excellence, or at least effort. > > And that’s it for me, I need to go make sure my son finishes the 150 pages he has to read before the end of the tri…🙂 **Dangerosa** -We need MORE “Tiger moms”, NOT fewer! We need to get their kids away freom TV and video games, and to do more, harder, homework, and into AVID programs, make sure they realize they probably won’t be professional athletes or muscians. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/53 "2012-02-28T03:04:50Z")
Tiger Moms are scary, though. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/54 "2012-02-28T03:08:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Tiger Moms are scary, though. Yeah, and? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/55 "2012-02-28T03:10:24Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > The reason it works in Finland? THEY’RE FINLAND! The never have been. never will be, the most powerful, prosperous natiion on Earth. Could you explain the connection between “successful educational model” and “power and prosperity?” ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/56 "2012-02-28T03:27:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Could you explain the connection between “successful educational model” and “power and prosperity?” If their system is SO great: 1. Why haven’t we adopted it or 2. Why aren’t they the ones leading all the military operations saving Western Civilization? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/57 "2012-02-28T03:34:38Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > If their system is SO great: 1. Why haven’t we adopted it or 2. Why aren’t they the ones leading all the military operations saving Western Civilization? So . . . their system works because they aren’t a major military power? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/58 "2012-02-28T03:37:34Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > If their system is SO great: 1. Why haven’t we adopted it or 2. Why aren’t they the ones leading all the military operations saving Western Civilization? 1. Because Americans are a divisive, cynical, selfish bunch of people. 2. Because Finland loves its people more than it loves power. Not does it have a persecution complex or an unhealthy obsession with murder, death, kill. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/59 "2012-02-28T04:18:33Z")
Why don’t we adapt the South Korean model, one that has public and private schools? After all, SK scores higher than Finland in reading and math, so obviously their model is the bestest. To quote something I said earlier: > [@moi](#): > > In addition, a lot of people use these rankings, look at policy differences between the US and higher-ranked countries, find one or two policies to their liking, and say - “See? That’s why we’re failing - we’re not like Country X in that the US doesn’t…” > > However, they don’t take into account the fact that countries ranked lower than the US also have the same policy and policy goals as some countries ranked higher, or that countries ranked higher than the US have differing policy goals than other countries ranked higher than the US. > > For example, the above Atlantic article about Finland’s lofty goal of “equality” and their thesis is that this “equality” (defined by no private schools, apparently) is what drives Finnish scores. But this thesis, that “equality” is the answer, isn’t proven - South Korea has a number of private schools and ranks higher than Finland in reading and math. If “equality” is the answer, then why does S. Korea do better with a lesser emphasis on it than Finland? [http://asiasociety.org/education/learning-world/south-korean-education-reforms](http://asiasociety.org/education/learning-world/south-korean-education-reforms) > [@above link](#): > > The Korean school system is a 6-3-3-4 system; that is, six years of primary school, three years of junior high, three years of senior high school and four years of college. The system contains national, public, and private schools. The administrative structure to oversee education consists of federal governance, as well as regional and local control. Sorry, but foolish strawmen aside, **Monstro** , the fact that Finland does things one way doesn’t necessarily make their way the “right” way. Countries higher-ranked than Finland do things differently, countries lower-ranked than the US use the Finnish model. The issue is more complicated than saying “This one way is the best as demonstrated by one small, culturally and ethnically homogenous small country, and that’s what EVERYBODY needs to do!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/60 "2012-02-28T04:41:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I also suspect that Finnish society is much, much more homogenous than the US, and probably values education as a whole much more like the high performing communities in the US. And I think this point is truer than many people want to realize. A while ago I put together a spreadsheet, based upon the reading scores, of all 14 countries that score higher than the US because I noticed that the countries that score higher than the US overwhelmingly have the following characteristics: 1. Much smaller - The average OECD country ranked higher than the US on the reading scale was 7.9% of the US’s population, with the largest being 40% the US’s size (Japan) and the smallest being .1% (Iceland.) 2. More culturally and racially homogeneous. The average country is 83% racially/ethnically homogeneous (Japan is #1 with 98.5% of all citizens being Japanese, Belgium is 14th with 57% of the population Flemish (though the Walloons, 30% of the population, are white people of W. European extraction.)) The US ranks 13th on the list with 63.7% of the people being “white.” It makes it easier, _far_ easier, to have “world-class” education scores if all your students come to school with the same cultural assumptions. > **[Country Reading Rankings Comparison 11-11](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NXZAN0lVSFsGZjXhZYde8cEGIzvVal_DZ-GrXR7hELU/edit)** > > This Sheet is private (Let me know if y’all can’t see the spreadsheet - this is the first time I’ve uploaded something to Google docs and shared it with the web, so I may have made a mistake.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909.md?page=4)