# Why is the US behind educationally? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 25, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909 "2012-02-25T02:09:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/61 "2012-02-28T04:51:56Z")
Why is the US behind educationally? The guy who was recently leading the national polls for the Republican nomination for President thinks that college is a hippie commie plot. That can’t help. > **[Santorum presses culture wars attack](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/santorum-presses-culture-wars-attack/2012/02/26/gIQAqSkicR_story.html?hpid=z2&tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost)** > > The Republican presidential hopeful said President Obama is “a > snob” for wanting Americans to go to college. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/62 "2012-02-28T11:20:18Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > The issue is more complicated than saying “This one way is the best as demonstrated by one small, culturally and ethnically homogenous small country, and that’s what EVERYBODY needs to do!” I don’t recall saying the Finnish model was the best. I said it was better because I personally think it is better. It may be that Americans need to find something that works well within their system and that the Finnish model is just too ambitious and unrealistic for us to pull off (the Finnish seem to have equality built into their entire society, with their strong safety net and social welfare programs). I just disagree with this idea that USA’s system is working since we’re the top military power (?!) Really, that logic so entirely bizarre that it supports my belief that some Americans really do need urgent academic intervention. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/63 "2012-02-28T12:52:17Z")
Some folks have mentioned homogeneity. Just so that we have some numbers. The immigrant population only makes up 2.7% of the total. No idea about the number of 1st and 2nd genners.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration\_to\_Finland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Finland) There are a few very small areas that are majority Swedish-speaking. The linked articles tells us that ~10% of the population has a native language other than Finnish, and ~half of that is Swedish-speaking. It does not tell us how many of that 10% are still fluent in Finnish.[Languages of Finland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Finland) "English is the de facto national language of the United States, with 82% of the population claiming it as a mother tongue, and some 96% claiming to speak it ‘well’ or ‘very well.’"[Languages of the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_United_States) ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/64 "2012-02-28T14:42:06Z")
There is a lot more to culture than language and immigration status. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/65 "2012-02-28T15:25:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I just disagree with this idea that USA’s system is working since we’re the top military power (?!) Really, that logic so entirely bizarre that it supports my belief that some Americans really do need urgent academic intervention. I got the opposite impression: I think the idea was not that our system is working because we’re the top military power, but that we’re the top military power because our education system is working. Which is at least somewhat more sensible, and indeed ties into something I’ve wondered about for a long time. Complaints about how we suck at teaching math and science go back to at least the early 80s (ignoring earlier iterations of that complaint that were more-or-less answered by the Space Program in the 60s). And yet it was graduates of American schools that were responsible for nearly every major software and hardware company that has driven the information age: everything from IBM to Intel to Microsoft to Sun Microsystems to Google to Mozilla to Apple to Amazon to Facebook, and literally hundreds more, are American companies started by graduates of American schools and staffed primarily by more graduates of American schools. It’s possible that most of those entrepreneurs actually went to US private schools, which would kind of shoot a hole in my argument. But if they didn’t, wouldn’t this near-total domination of information age technology point to our schools actually being pretty damned good at teaching the kind of science and math that lead to real-world success, even if it’s not the kind of science and math that leads to excellence on international exams? Getting back to the military, there’s at least some argument to be made that our public schools have fostered the world’s best military scientists. I don’t think that argument would be as strong as the argument about computer technology, above (or as strong as a similar argument that could be made about genetic science, chemistry, physics, etc., looking at US dominance in some of those fields), but I can understand how it could be made. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/66 "2012-02-28T15:47:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I got the opposite impression: I think the idea was not that our system is working because we’re the top military power, but that we’re the top military power because our education system is working. > > Which is at least somewhat more sensible . . . I think the reasons behind American economic and military power are rooted more in our economic system, the size and resources of the country, Westward expansion and Manifest Destiny. The convergence of our massive resources, drive to achieve, manufacturing base, and cheap labor with the end of the Depression and WWII led to a unique opportunity to exert military and cultural adventurism in the latter half of the 20th century and a hegemony that continues to this day. I find it untenable to argue that our position as a superpower is a result of our amazing educational systems. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/67 "2012-02-28T18:51:16Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > **Dangerosa** -We need MORE “Tiger moms”, NOT fewer! We need to get their kids away freom TV and video games, and to do more, harder, homework, and into AVID programs, make sure they realize they probably won’t be professional athletes or muscians. You won’t find me being one though. I’m not messing up my kids like that. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/68 "2012-02-28T19:00:35Z")
> [@andros](#): > > So . . . their system works because they aren’t a major military power? 😕 Because we provide for their defense, they can concentrate on domestic needs. (this is true for ALL of Western Europe, not just Finland) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/69 "2012-02-28T19:01:08Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > You won’t find me being one though. I’m not messing up my kids like that. The mother in the book told her kids to be the absolute best or not to bother. That is indeed messed up. Expecting the best they can do, and being involved, is a lot different. My daughters have significantly raised the GPAs of their boyfriends by modeling good study habits. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/70 "2012-02-28T20:11:37Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Because we provide for their defense, they can concentrate on domestic needs. (this is true for ALL of Western Europe, not just Finland) That sounds rather astoundingly simplistic, given Finland’s history. But you said that their educational system works because they aren’t as wealthy and powerful as the US. Which still doesn’t make sense to me. Certainly it was in American interests that Finland remain neutral throughout the Cold War, but they have been in no danger of invasion or attack for decades at a very minimum. Or are you suggesting that US adventurism in the guise of “saving Western Civilization” (whatever you mean by that) has cost us the resources and the will to implement the sort of innovative and wildly successful educational policies Finland has? ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/71 "2012-02-28T20:15:37Z")
**andros** -I’m refering to the latter. Our Pentagon spending dwarfs the rest of the Western democracies. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/72 "2012-02-28T20:35:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Speak for yourself. I do not want there to be bad schools and I know of no one else who does. I’d much rather that every school be good. Right now, the government itself [admits](http://theblogthatwasthursday.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/how-to-turn-failing-schools-into-succeeding-schools/) that half of government-run schools are failing by its own standards. Vouchers allow poor children trapped in those failing schools to escape to private schools where success is allowed. Magnet schools and charter schools allow some individual schools to ignore the government rules that drag down our education system. Needless to say, all those approaches set up a sharp contrast between those who want as many children as possible to be in failing schools and those who want as many children as possible to be in successful schools. So the Finnish model works for you too? I am very intrigued by it. Like to see it tried out in some state. Georgia if possible. All I have to do is persuade the Neanderthals here … ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/73 "2012-02-28T20:37:13Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > **andros** -I’m refering to the latter. Our Pentagon spending dwarfs the rest of the Western democracies. So you’re saying that we don’t have a more successful education infrastructure in the US because of our immense military expenditures? Finland spends somewhat short of [19%](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/finland/expenditure-per-student-primary-percent-of-gdp-per-capita-wb-data.html)of its GDP on education. The US spends less than [6%](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp) on education. Seeing as how the US drops only [5%](http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2011/aug/05/randy-forbes/forbes-says-us-defense-spending-measured-against-g/) of GDP on military spending, I cannot for the life of me understand how our military is such a drain on resources that we cannot afford more for education. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/74 "2012-02-28T20:49:14Z")
Finland, like most of Europe, ALSO pay huge taxes, relative to the US. My overarching point: to be sucessful, you MUST aspire to success, and in the aspiring, there will be winners and there will be losers. Americans accept this without question, the rest of the world can afford to delude themselves of this fact. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/75 "2012-02-28T20:55:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It depends on how tough it is to get into free college. I imagine if all public universities became free, admissions criteria would become stricter in response to the increased number of applicants. So in that case, I could see students working harder. > > I’m sure there would be some unintended consequences. When Georgia first instituted the HOPE scholarship, it allowed high school graduates with a 3.0 GPA to attend any public university for free. Students started gaming the system by taking easier classes so that they wouldn’t have to work so hard to get a 3.0. Which was dumb, since university standards didn’t change. But still, so many students were able to take advantage of the scholarship that the state started to complain about being bankrupt (I’m skeptical of this claim, but whatever\*). So they raised the bar. You now not only have to have a 3.7 GPA in high school, but you have to score a 1200 on the SAT (and keep a 3.3 GPA in college). That second amendment is the killer, IMHO. Kids who don’t make over 1200 tend to be the ones who need financial help the most. > > \*I’m skeptical of this claim partially because the state started whining about how broke it was while it removed the maximum household income eligibility ($100,000). People are who are broke generally don’t do crazy things like that. Georgia is run by Republicans. Republicans do crazy things all the time. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/76 "2012-02-28T20:56:58Z")
> [@andros](#): > > So you’re saying that we don’t have a more successful education infrastructure in the US because of our immense military expenditures? > > Finland spends somewhat short of [19%](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/finland/expenditure-per-student-primary-percent-of-gdp-per-capita-wb-data.html)of its GDP on education. > > The US spends less than [6%](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_spe-education-spending-of-gdp) on education. > > Seeing as how the US drops only [5%](http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2011/aug/05/randy-forbes/forbes-says-us-defense-spending-measured-against-g/) of GDP on military spending, I cannot for the life of me understand how our military is such a drain on resources that we cannot afford more for education. My cite states that the US spends 22.4% of GDP per student. > **[World Bank Open Data](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.PRIM.PC.ZS)** > > Free and open access to global development data ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/77 "2012-02-28T21:03:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Or if 60% of the student body is ESL, does it makes sense to rate it on the same scale as a student body that is 3% ESL? > > My father retired from his job as a principal disillusioned by the system. Consistently, his school was ranked at the bottom when the paper would publish all the school’s NCLB “grades”. His school district was one of the wealthiest in the state, but paradoxically his school served some of the poorest communities in the state. So of course his school was going to look bad when compared to the others! It demoralized his teachers, who were working their hardest but knew they would never be able to change perceptions. And it demoralized the kids, too. Would would want to go to a school everyone thinks is bad? > > It was a wonderful school, but you wouldn’t have known that based on the scarlet letter that had been brandished on it. So another vote for the Finnish model, which would have prevented that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/78 "2012-02-28T21:04:28Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > My cite states that the US spends 22.4% of GDP per student. > > [http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.PRIM.PC.ZS](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.PRIM.PC.ZS) Good Christ–if there’s only 1 million students, that’s an astonishing 22,400,000% of our GDP! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/79 "2012-02-28T21:15:47Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Finland, like most of Europe, ALSO pay huge taxes, relative to the US. My overarching point: to be sucessful, you MUST aspire to success, and in the aspiring, there will be winners and there will be losers. Americans accept this without question, the rest of the world can afford to delude themselves of this fact. Wow, you’re really all over the place. Ok, so Finland’s education policy is successful because they “aspire to success?” And what do taxes have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909/80 "2012-02-28T21:18:23Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > My cite states that the US spends 22.4% of GDP per student. > > [http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.PRIM.PC.ZS](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.PRIM.PC.ZS) I’ll happily take your number over mine. Damned if I know why they’re so different, though. Need to work on that. Regardless, it’s hardly American military spending that keeps the US from education reform. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-us-behind-educationally/613909.md?page=5)