# Why is there no comma in this sentence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 20, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446 "2012-02-20T19:06:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/21 "2012-02-20T22:56:23Z")
Interestingly enough, using the serial comma in the singular case introduces confusion rather than eliminating it. “We invited the stripper, JFK and Stalin,” is clearly referring to 3 people. But, “We invited the stripper, JFK, and Stalin,” could be referring to those same 3 people or to 2 people, one of whom is a stripper named JFK. This is why one should not rely on graphics for grammar advice. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/22 "2012-02-21T00:19:34Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > I’m sure an english major will come along and quote the correct Strunk & White passage shortly. I don’t think very many of the English majors on this board would quote Strunk & White. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/23 "2012-02-21T02:14:37Z")
In my experience, English majors are all too happy to quote Strunk and White. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/24 "2012-02-21T15:39:00Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Interestingly enough, using the serial comma in the singular case introduces confusion rather than eliminating it. > > “We invited the stripper, JFK and Stalin,” is clearly referring to 3 people. But, “We invited the stripper, JFK, and Stalin,” could be referring to those same 3 people or to 2 people, one of whom is a stripper named JFK. This is why one should not rely on graphics for grammar advice. Ah, yes. There are certainly counterexamples to the serial comma. While we’re at it, there are also cases where either approach is ambiguous: _We invited Stalin, a stripper, and a dictator._ (Are there two people here or three?) So let’s get rid of the serial comma: _We invited Stalin, a stripper and a dictator._ (Now is there one person or three?) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/25 "2012-02-21T16:03:37Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > American usage generally favors the comma before the conjunction, British does not. Who gives a fuck[?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_i1xk07o4g) ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/26 "2012-02-21T16:11:10Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > **Seriously people. Are there any professional freelance proofreaders on the Board?** I believe **Scarlett67** is a professional proofreader. You might want to contact her via PM if you want to get her attention. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/27 "2012-02-21T16:40:32Z")
And one more cite from [the Chicago Manual of Style](http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Commas/Commas21.html): > [@](#): > > [S]tandard punctuation calls for a comma before a conjunction that joins two independent clauses unless the clauses are very short. Please see CMOS 6.28. I don’t have the actual Chicago Manual of Style, so I can’t quote the rule, but this jibes with my memory, and is consistent with the Associated Press Stylebook rule quoted above. (_Cough_ with a couple of typos on my part, naturally.) Is there a style guide that would _not_ recommend a comma there? ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/28 "2012-02-21T16:42:13Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:22, topic:613446”] I don’t think very many of the English majors on this board would quote Strunk & White. [/QUOTE] Minor hijack: I’m intrigued, why not? I had a reading/writing course in college taught by a history/religion teacher, and the first thing he did was make us read Elements of Style. He liked short, concise papers. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/29 "2012-02-21T17:28:24Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Minor hijack: I’m intrigued, why not? > > I had a reading/writing course in college taught by a history/religion teacher, and the first thing he did was make us read Elements of Style. He liked short, concise papers. Strunk & White has a lot of critics. A lot. [This article](http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497) will give you a rundown of why Strunk & White is regarded as a piss-poor guide to writing by many people. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/30 "2012-02-21T17:29:17Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#): > > Minor hijack: I’m intrigued, why not? > > I had a reading/writing course in college taught by a history/religion teacher, and the first thing he did was make us read Elements of Style. He liked short, concise papers. I think the article “[50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice](http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497)” sums it up very well. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/31 "2012-02-21T21:10:47Z")
Much obliged to both of you! ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/32 "2012-02-21T21:43:36Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ah, yes. There are certainly counterexamples to the serial comma. I’m not trying to argue for one side or the other; I’m simply trying to point out that punctuation marks don’t always end ambiguity and in most cases, there’s a lot more context to make it obvious. We invited Stalin, a stripper and a dictator. But by the time the stripper arrived, Stalin had drunk all the beer and the dictator was busy in the kitchen violating my potatoes. (Now it’s extremely clear how many people there are and since most of the time, people write and talk in more than simple sentences, trying to make the comma carry the weight of all the clarity always seems a waste of time to me.) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/33 "2012-02-21T21:49:28Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m not trying to argue for one side or the other. I know. I’m not making a counterargument, just showing the curiosities of the English language. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/34 "2012-02-21T22:17:45Z")
I am a communications professional who frequently writes and edits, and I would not use a comma in the OP’s sentence. A number of people have mentioned the rules involving two independent clauses, but I do not consider these two clauses to be independent. “Add in the fact that he is an actual team player wearing a Knicks uniform” does not stand on its own. It needs additional information to make sense. That information is provided by the second part of the sentence, and the two flow together without needing a comma. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/35 "2012-02-21T22:26:34Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I am a communications professional who frequently writes and edits, and I would not use a comma in the OP’s sentence. > > A number of people have mentioned the rules involving two independent clauses, but I do not consider these two clauses to be independent. “Add in the fact that he is an actual team player wearing a Knicks uniform” does not stand on its own. It needs additional information to make sense. That information is provided by the second part of the sentence, and the two flow together without needing a comma. I disagree. “Add in the fact that he is an actual team player wearing a Knicks uniform” is a perfectly valid sentence on its own. Sure, it needs more context, but grammatically, it can stand on its lonesome. “Take [this piece of information]. Add in the fact that he is an actual team player wearing a Knicks uniform. It’s like spotting a unicorn playing point guard at Madison Square Garden.” Yes, it reads a bit choppy (I would put an em dash there if I wanted this wording). But you can also but “What do you get?” in between the sentences. The first half of the sentence stands alone fine. It’s a complete sentence with subject and predicate. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/36 "2012-02-22T00:24:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Is there a style guide that would _not_ recommend a comma there? According to Wikipedia, the AP Stylebook. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/37 "2012-02-22T00:27:53Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > According to Wikipedia, the AP Stylebook. Then Wikipedia is incorrect. Read my citation above, directly from the AP Stylebook. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/38 "2012-02-22T20:01:07Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Strunk & White has a lot of critics. A lot. [This article](http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497) will give you a rundown of why Strunk & White is regarded as a piss-poor guide to writing by many people. [quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:30, topic:613446”] I think the article “[50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice](http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497)” sums it up very well. [/quote] Interesting screed. I wouldn’t necessarily try to debate this guy point by point, because each individual point is well argued. But in the aggregate, he seems to be off on a search and destroy mission. Many of his points are hypercritical, trying to find fault around every corner. But I suppose that is a discussion for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/39 "2012-02-22T20:25:08Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Interesting screed. I wouldn’t necessarily try to debate this guy point by point, because each individual point is well argued. But in the aggregate, he seems to be off on a search and destroy mission. Many of his points are hypercritical, trying to find fault around every corner. But I suppose that is a discussion for another thread. This has come up a couple times on this board. [Here’s one thread on it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=501919) I’m currently a bit more anti-S&W than I was back then. It was helpful for me as a stepping stone, and I break all of its “rules” with impunity today. But I understand how some would consider it next to worthless. It’s a shame there isn’t some modern version of S&W that would be a better introduction to crafting the written English word. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446/40 "2012-02-22T20:33:10Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Interesting screed. I wouldn’t necessarily try to debate this guy point by point, because each individual point is well argued. But in the aggregate, he seems to be off on a search and destroy mission. Many of his points are hypercritical, trying to find fault around every corner. But I suppose that is a discussion for another thread. I would certainly agree he’s being hypercritical, but the way _The Elements of Style_ paints their list of firm, hard rules as inviolate invites such intense point-by-point criticism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-comma-in-this-sentence/613446.md?page=3)