# Why is there no culture of football hooliganism in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 3, 2012, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567 "2012-10-03T10:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/81 "2012-10-05T04:24:25Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > And there’s a good chance that somebody is carrying a gun. “An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” _- Robert A. Heinlein_ ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/82 "2012-10-05T08:30:15Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Hmmmmm, let’s see here. > > Are there “political” teams in the U.S., in the sense that, say, fans of the New York Islanders tend to be Democrats, fans of the New England Patriots tend to be Republicans, the Chicago Bulls really fucking hate stem-cell research while the Dallas Stars are BFFs with the KKK? > > Because plenty of European soccer teams are political like that – in Italy, Livorno is the “communist” club, while Lazio is the “fascist” club. In Spain, the royal family roots for Real Madrid, while Barcelona fans tend to favor Catalan independence. In Germany, St. Pauli is the go-to team for proudly unwashed anarchist punks with crusty ol’ dreadlocks, while pristine-lederhosen’d apple-cheeked Bavarian engineers proudly yodel away for Bayern München. In the U.K., Liverpool was founded by poor Irish immigrants, will all that entails - while Chelsea, well, fuck Chelsea and the Russian they rode in on. I’m not sure about clubs in continental Europe, but I think it’s stretching the idea a bit far to suggest that there’s some sort of political stance that can be associated with Liverpool or Chelsea fans. Most of the big clubs have support across the country, from all walks of life. The most you can say is that some may have more well-heeled supporters - like Arsenal, the favourite club of media luvvies in Islington. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/83 "2012-10-05T08:53:42Z")
Yeah, I was admittedly stretching it a bit with the English clubs – of the different leagues mentioned, that’s certainly the one I know the least about. Livorno (the Italian communist club) and St. Pauli (the German anarchist punk club) are clearer examples. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/84 "2012-10-05T10:26:07Z")
Easy to imagine why there isn’t. Also easy to understand why there is/was basketball hooliganism, especially during the MJ era. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/85 "2012-10-05T12:20:15Z")
> [@Nawth\_Chucka](#): > > My WAG is the lower drinking age, for one. It’s 21 here in the States but 18 in the UK. Sure, our 19 year old men may drink but not as easily or as often, I’d wager, as the 19 year olds in the UK. Drunk 19 year old men don’t always make good choices or have strong impulse control. > > The consistent fan violence I’ve seen here has been to do w/ college sport rivalries [(Detroit-Colorado notwithstanding)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Avalanche#Rivalry_with_the_Detroit_Red_Wings) and it seems as though it’s because the fans can actually sympathize w/ those athletes that attend their school. Maybe they don’t know the athlete personally but they have a big thing in common w/ them. > When Lions fans and Packers fans wind up near each other in the parking lot at Ford Field, they can say, “We rule and you suck!” but they really have no connection to the players besides being in the same city. That’s nothing to defend. This. Professional sports are a business, as evidenced by the recent NFL referee lockout and the NHL’s current labor problems. Everyone associated with that league is an employee. And what with teams having the ability to pick up and move (e.g. Cleveland to Baltimore, St. Louis to Arizona, Los Angeles to St. Louis in football), it becomes less about the team and more about the city and supporting the city’s team. Think of Pittsburgh here. All of its team colors are black and gold because the city’s colors are black and gold. The team is also heavily tied to Pittsburgh culture. Steelers fans are just as much fans of Pittsburgh as they are the Steelers, at least in my experience. (And considering who I’m married to, that’s a LOT of experience. :D) College sports, OTOH, are about the school and, as you point out, there is a much stronger emotional tie. For example, the Penn State chant says “We Are Penn State”. Note the “We” in there. Even people who have never set foot on any college campus, let alone Penn State’s, can be Penn State fans and identify with the team, and enough identify with the university that there were a lot of hard feelings because of the Sandusky scandal. Therefore, there tend to be more riots and fighting associated with college sports than there are with pro sports because of the stronger identification. Just out of idle curiosity, do European universities have the same tradition of athletics that American universities do? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/86 "2012-10-05T12:46:44Z")
Moving this to The Game Room from Great Debates. > [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > The sissies running around in knee socks trying to kick the ball in what you call football remind us of taking our little girls to what we call soccer games. Until they are 10 years old and even they realize it’s a pussy sport. We get it already - some of you don’t like soccer. Fine. If you have nothing to say except that it sucks, post in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/87 "2012-10-05T12:53:22Z")
Simple: seats and ticketing. They know who you are. In relation to the top level in England, any remaining vestiges of trouble inside grounds is a cultural and standing legacy from the earlier - terracing - era. There is still hooliganism further down the pyramid - where terracing persists - but it’s more limited now because of smarter policing (ban of alcohol on coaches, coaches to be escorted from and to city limits, etc, etc), undercover and internet intelligence and ccvt. Basicially, you can’t get away with it - not unless you organise a meet with the opposing fans (on phones) and some away from the ground. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/88 "2012-10-05T15:10:39Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > USA major league football games are expensive (a decent ticket to the NE Patriots costs about $170.00). > How do the English hooligans afford the admission price (and travel to the continent)? > Most seem to be unemployed. I think your point is well taken- New York Giants’ games are generally sold out, and most the the seats are filled by affluent people with season tickets. Affluent people generally don’t get into brawls or cause trouble at football games. However… A few years back, you may recall that the Giants had a LOT of rowdy fans in the LAST game of the season. There were a lot of people arrested for fighting and/or for throwing snowballs. What changed? Well, when it’s the last game of the season, and the team is out of playoff contention, what happens? People with season tickets decide it’s not worth going to the game, and they give the tickets to… oh, their poorer in-laws, the service personnel they employ, whoever. The LAST game of the season is often attended by people who could never afford to go to NFL games, normally, and who tend to drink more and get rowdier than the regulars. ---
**Author:** ![Paintcharge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paintcharge/32/7946_2.png) [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/89 "2012-10-05T15:39:26Z")
In addition to the things stated above, the type of games Americans watch don’t lend themselves to the crowd-led excitement that European Football does. What I mean by this is there is no tradition of crowd chants of “ole-ole-ole” and the like that you find at soccer games. Soccer seems to lend itself to that type of thing with continuous play, whereas football and baseball have discrete plays that interrupt. Something happens and American fans cheer or groan about that. In soccer, something is kind of happening all the time, so if you look away to organize a chant, you might not miss the action. Not being united into a mob could be a preventative to organized hooliganism. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/90 "2012-10-05T16:00:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You guys have never been to a Raiders game, obviously. They’re just mad because their team sucks and the franchise got ass-raped by Mike Brown, had Carson Palmer foisted on them and the only coach they had that was worth a shit fired after only one season. I’d riot, too. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/91 "2012-10-05T16:03:42Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > But even then, the fights were usually isolated pockets of mayhem, not a free-for-all throughout the arena. Which is also true of the “hooliganism” in Europe. Edit: also, anyone who doesn’t think hooliganism and fighting happen in the U.S. is dreaming. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/92 "2012-10-05T18:17:20Z")
I’ve seen a few fights at NFL games and MLB games. I remember seeing a man and woman attempting to beat the tar out of another guy at a Chicago Bear game – it was a few rows away from me, but I’m guessing that the “other guy” insulted the woman, based on the fact that she was the most vicious one in the fight. When I was at the University of Wisconsin, I went to a lot of football games, and fighting was more common there (at least in the student section) than at any NFL game I’ve attended. I’m a Packer season-ticket holder. If I get into a fight at a game, not only will I have criminal charges pressed, but the Packers will strip me of my season tickets (which I’ll never get back, since the waiting list is decades, if not centuries, long). If I give or sell my tickets to some random guy, and he gets into a fight at the game, they will _still_ strip my season tickets from me – the only way I can avoid that liability is to re-sell my tickets through the NFL’s approved ticket-resale agency (Ticketmaster, I believe). ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/93 "2012-10-05T19:58:01Z")
> [@Paintcharge](#): > > What I mean by this is there is no tradition of crowd chants of “ole-ole-ole” and the like that you find at soccer games. Great taste! ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/94 "2012-10-05T22:45:27Z")
The UK has more self identifying groups than the US. For example, things like the Mods and the Rockers don’t resonate in the US. There are cliques, but they are more fluid and casual. I can’t imagine a fight between _groups_ of hippies and jocks, though there were plenty of individual fights and bullying going on. I think this may be because we have a less rigid class system in general and people don’t see themselves as belonging to a “tribe”. In any case, though Red Sox fans and Yankee fans hate each other, their primary identity is not tied up with the teams they support. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/95 "2012-10-05T22:50:07Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Which is also true of the “hooliganism” in Europe. > > Edit: also, anyone who doesn’t think hooliganism and fighting happen in the U.S. is dreaming. I have never heard of a group of US fans getting together to plan how they are going to fight the fans of another team, or trying to sneak projectiles into a game that they can throw at opposing fans. Sure there are fights and violence in the US, but just not the organized, expected, and accepted hooliganism like in the UK. Can you imagine hundreds of Red Sox fans getting together to board a train to NYC so they can fight Yankee fans? It just doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/96 "2012-10-06T00:02:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s actually soccer hooliganism and we don’t play soccer in this country (for Americans unfamiliar with the term soccer, it’s also known as Canadian Lawn Dancing). Here in the US we play real football, which means the players are the hooligans. Soccer hooligans are the result of a pre-teen girls game used as an actual sport for men, even if they are British. If you’ve ever seen the game of soccer you’d understand why the crowd gets violent. > [@Uzi](#): > > There really should be a ‘Like’ button here. Shoo…the grownups are talking here. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/97 "2012-10-06T00:07:52Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > I have never heard of a group of US fans getting together to plan how they are going to fight the fans of another team, or trying to sneak projectiles into a game that they can throw at opposing fans. Sure there are fights and violence in the US, but just not the organized, expected, and accepted hooliganism like in the UK. Can you imagine hundreds of Red Sox fans getting together to board a train to NYC so they can fight Yankee fans? It just doesn’t happen. I think you haven’t done your research. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/98 "2012-10-06T00:43:54Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I think you haven’t done your research. It may be a matter of scale and perspective but I am going to have ask you for yours. Hooliganism is/was a form of organized terrorism premeditated by soccer fans to start the initial fighting in the stands and possibly lead to wide-scale violence even involving innocent people. It is/was not comparable to anything that has happened in the U.S. in the last 100 years if ever unless you some counter-examples of that exact phenomenon. There have been riots in the U.S. after sporting events (usually by the winning fans oddly enough) but those tend to spontaneous and not pre-planned. Large-scale violence within the stadium simply doesn’t happen in the U.S. today because security is so tight even at large college games. My brother was police officer that served LSU football games and they always had an armed officers and canine units plus snipers if there were VIPS present to seal with any trouble before it got out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/99 "2012-10-06T09:10:19Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > The UK has more self identifying groups than the US. For example, things like the Mods and the Rockers don’t resonate in the US. There are cliques, but they are more fluid and casual. I can’t imagine a fight between _groups_ of hippies and jocks, though there were plenty of individual fights and bullying going on. I think this may be because we have a less rigid class system in general and people don’t see themselves as belonging to a “tribe”. Mods and Rockers? Rigid class system? This is what happens when people base their ideas about British society on Quadrophenia and Upstairs Downstairs :D. If you were to do the same sort of thing and form a superficial idea of American society from sitcoms and movies, you’d probably come away with the impression that American youth culture is tribal. All those “jocks” vs. “nerds” storylines. We don’t even have a word for the idea of “jocks” in British English. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/100 "2012-10-06T09:21:34Z")
Documentary on hooligans, part 6 starting at 5 minutes is pertinent: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSHnaZR3hgE) Former hooligan says football in the UK is not like it used to be because of the money generated by TV contracts, new breed of fans, families, corporate people, it’s no longer male-only and an opportunity to vent your anger. He also talks about hos hooliganism is more of a phenomenon at clubs that haven’t gone big. Seems like US sports fit the description. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567.md?page=6)