# Why is there no culture of football hooliganism in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 3, 2012, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567 "2012-10-03T10:29:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/101 "2012-10-06T09:45:02Z")
Given the history of football hooliganism in Europe, why aren’t security guards more thorough with patting down fans so that they don’t sneak something ridiculous like road flares into the game? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/102 "2012-10-06T21:13:08Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > This. > _snipped_ > > College sports, OTOH, are about the school and, as you point out, there is a much stronger emotional tie. For example, the Penn State chant says “We Are Penn State”. Note the “We” in there. Even people who have never set foot on any college campus, let alone Penn State’s, can be Penn State fans and identify with the team, and enough identify with the university that there were a lot of hard feelings because of the Sandusky scandal. Therefore, there tend to be more riots and fighting associated with college sports than there are with pro sports because of the stronger identification. > > Just out of idle curiosity, do European universities have the same tradition of athletics that American universities do? Generally speaking, no. They have sports teams which are more like club sports in US universities. No huge fan followings, no big business for TV broadcasts, merchandising, and advertisers. It’s soccer clubs that command that type of loyalty. This is partly because pro soccer teams in England are actually clubs, which the general public can join (not as players, but as part owners and users of club provided facilities.) The club owns the team, not one wealthy owner. The only institution resembling that in the States is the Green Bay Packers. So you don’t have the spectacle of a scumbag owner (Irsay!!!) sneaking a team out of town in the dead of night. The team is part of the community in a way that’s similar to a college team being part of a university’s community. In English soccer, an amateur club team can enter the national tournament and take on the loftiest pro team. On our side of the pond, that only happens in college basketball. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English\_football\_league\_system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system) ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/103 "2012-10-06T21:32:25Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > The club owns the team, not one wealthy owner. The only institution resembling that in the States is the Green Bay Packers. So you don’t have the spectacle of a scumbag owner (Irsay!!!) sneaking a team out of town in the dead of night. Someone should tell Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour that. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/104 "2012-10-07T00:14:30Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Someone should tell Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour that. I thought that was the exception, not the rule. I was thinking, Man U isn’t owned by a single person. But apparently it is: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer\_ownership\_of\_Manchester\_United](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glazer_ownership_of_Manchester_United) and English football ownership in general is becoming more Americanized: [http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2011/04/takeover\_arsenal](http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2011/04/takeover_arsenal) Private ownership is more the rule than the exception now, apparently: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/6123558/So-who-really-owns-Englands-top-clubs-Were-waiting-to-find-out.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/6123558/So-who-really-owns-Englands-top-clubs-Were-waiting-to-find-out.html) More fan/public ownership than in any American sports league, but a lot less than I’d thought: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_fan-owned\_sports\_teams](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fan-owned_sports_teams) ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/105 "2012-10-07T00:19:49Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Someone should tell Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour that. Pete Winkelman at MK Dons would more appropriate; Chelsea and Man City still play in their home cities. And who was it that took that lot from Woolwich to Islington? ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/106 "2012-10-07T21:05:05Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Hmmmmm, let’s see here. > > Are there “political” teams in the U.S., in the sense that, say, fans of the New York Islanders tend to be Democrats, fans of the New England Patriots tend to be Republicans, the Chicago Bulls really fucking hate stem-cell research while the Dallas Stars are BFFs with the KKK? > > Because plenty of European soccer teams are political like that – in Italy, Livorno is the “communist” club, while Lazio is the “fascist” club. In Spain, the royal family roots for Real Madrid, while Barcelona fans tend to favor Catalan independence. In Germany, St. Pauli is the go-to team for proudly unwashed anarchist punks with crusty ol’ dreadlocks, while pristine-lederhosen’d apple-cheeked Bavarian engineers proudly yodel away for Bayern München. In the U.K., Liverpool was founded by poor Irish immigrants, will all that entails - while Chelsea, well, fuck Chelsea and the Russian they rode in on. No. In the US fan loyalty is primarily based on geography rather than politics, religion, social class, or anything like that. At the most, a particular team might be saddled with a political steriotype of the particular community they represent. So, for example, Dallas Cowboys fans might think of San Francisco 49 fans as liberal hippies and 49er fans may assume that Cowboys fans are all gun-toting Republicans. The reality is that if you live in Dallas you are probably a Cowboys fan even if you are a liberal Democrat, and Republicans who live in the bay area are likely to be 49er fans. ---
**Author:** ![kurtisokc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kurtisokc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kurtisokc)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/107 "2012-10-07T21:17:52Z")
Expanding on my prior post, fan loyalty in North America also doesn’t follow religion like it does with some European soccer rivalries (such as with the Celts and Rangers in Scotland.) College teams which represent religiously affiliated institutions such as BYU or Notre Dame may be a partial exception, but even there the emphasis is on institutional loyalty rather than religious loyalty. Not only are all Catholics not Notre Dame fans, but not all Notre Dame fans are necessarily Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/108 "2012-10-08T00:02:41Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > Expanding on my prior post, fan loyalty in North America also doesn’t follow religion like it does with some European soccer rivalries (such as with the Celts and Rangers in Scotland.) College teams which represent religiously affiliated institutions such as BYU or Notre Dame may be a partial exception, but even there the emphasis is on institutional loyalty rather than religious loyalty. Not only are all Catholics not Notre Dame fans, but not all Notre Dame fans are necessarily Catholic. That component is only relevant in Scotland as far as I know. No teams in England or on the continent have similar sectarian rivalries to the Old Firm and other teams. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/109 "2012-10-08T05:51:44Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > Mods and Rockers? Rigid class system? This is what happens when people base their ideas about British society on Quadrophenia and Upstairs Downstairs :D. > > If you were to do the same sort of thing and form a superficial idea of American society from sitcoms and movies, you’d probably come away with the impression that American youth culture is tribal. All those “jocks” vs. “nerds” storylines. We don’t even have a word for the idea of “jocks” in British English. Hey I’ve see it four times, so don’t knock Quadrophenia. But seriously, my family is English on one side and I’ve spent quite a bit of time there and there is a difference in attitude about class between the two countries. I deeply insulted my cousin’s husband when I suggested to his son that he should look at going to college even though I never graduated myself. Having the right accent was a big issue in my British Uncles’ families. You see it somewhat in America on the East Coast, but in the rest of the country you won’t see kids being made fun of for putting on airs or getting ahead of themselves, it’s the American Dream to do better than your parents. When I was in England in the 70’s there were Skin Heads in abundance. The idea that a bunch of kids would all dress alike and wear the same brand of shoe was utterly foreign to me. I think other posters have described it as the cowboy ethos, but Americans just don’t have that sort of group mentality. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/110 "2012-10-09T08:18:22Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > European-wide if you mean it exists in every country. But in most of Spain it doesn’t: it exists in a very limited amount of locations, and those people will use anything as an excuse to behave like the rabid dogs they are - if the local team loses, it if wins, if it’s not playing, if there’s elections, if there’s not, if it rains, if the sun shines, if it’s foggy… Everywhere has there only type of arseholeness. Just about every time an English team plays in Spain one of their players seems to end up being subjected to racial abuse, for example. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2012, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/111 "2012-10-09T08:21:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > nor do I recall reading much about hooliganism is the Scandinavian countries either, Oh it happens. The only time I have ever been at a match that has had to be stopped for a time due to hooliganism was my first ever match in Sweden, Hammarby vs Malmö a few years back. The Hammarby fans threw missiles at the Assistant Ref. Being British and a football fan, I’ve been to many games in England and have never had a game stopped/delayed due to hooliganism. It took about sixty minutes of Swedish football for me to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/112 "2012-10-10T02:02:02Z")
> [@kurtisokc](#): > > No. In the US fan loyalty is primarily based on geography rather than politics, religion, social class, or anything like that. At the most, a particular team might be saddled with a political steriotype of the particular community they represent. So, for example, Dallas Cowboys fans might think of San Francisco 49 fans as liberal hippies and 49er fans may assume that Cowboys fans are all gun-toting Republicans. The reality is that if you live in Dallas you are probably a Cowboys fan even if you are a liberal Democrat, and Republicans who live in the bay area are likely to be 49er fans. In fact, fandom is probably the one thing that’ll bring two politically opposite individuals together – or push two people on the same side apart. Last year the Bruins goalie Tim Thomas was basically pillared for skipping the traditional White House visit after the Bruins won the Cup. Making it a political thing created a big backlash and from what I gather, pissed off some of his teammates as well. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/113 "2012-10-10T04:36:20Z")
And Thomas works in probably the Bluest state in the Union. ---
**Author:** ![Intelligently\_Designed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intelligently_designed/32/20957_2.png) [@Intelligently\_Designed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intelligently_Designed)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/114 "2012-10-11T23:10:04Z")
Heck, sometimes groups of hooligans clash even though [they support the same team](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/12/sports/12iht-psg.html). ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/115 "2012-10-12T00:06:08Z")
American hooligans seem to be better organised, I think you call them street gangs? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2012, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/116 "2012-10-12T12:09:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Do Rangers fans at MSG still yell “Potvin sucks!” at every slack moment, or has that finally died off? There must be some, but I confess I haven’t paid attention to a Islander-Ranger match in a long tme. ---
**Author:** ![British\_Bulldog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@British\_Bulldog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/British_Bulldog)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/117 "2014-01-20T20:17:51Z")
After reading through. I’ll share my view, I have been actively involved in the casual uk scene and seen around Europe. I believe in the USA there is no hooligans, otherwise know as ‘casuals’ in the UK, it’s purely the distance. Without doubt if Americans could travel in 1000’s to football matches there would be trouble and hooligans. The idea for us is to go to another town/city on behalf Of our team and try to ‘take it’. Beat their casuals and drink in their town doing what you want. Taking the piss. Australia is similar to you in that sense. Although they do have a all casual scene… Which the USA does. Casuals (hooligan) and being casual is a culture. It’s fashion. Wearing such clothes like Stone island, Paul smith, aquascutum, Armani, Lacoste, Henri Lloyd, Fjallraven… But it’s changed throughout the years. Music is another part of it. Well worth looking into, it’s a true British Culture. Anyway… In America it’s not happened because its very unlikely 1000’s of pissed opposing teams are drinking in ‘your’ city, your ‘territory’ and you ‘don’t like it’ … Then it becomes wide spread. But always the danger of heavy handed police & others with weapons. America is worse than UK. Why have guns? At least here it’s fair game with your fists. You wait, when ultra fast travel with trains or whatever, America will have a bigger problem Than most with football hooligans!! R&R! ---
**Author:** ![British\_Bulldog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@British\_Bulldog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/British_Bulldog)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/118 "2014-01-20T20:20:45Z")
Done on my iPhone, I’m not illiterate don’t worry. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/119 "2014-01-20T22:26:47Z")
I somewhat agree. What’s that saying? In England they think 100 miles is a long distance and in the States they think 100 years is a long time. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2014, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567/120 "2014-01-20T23:54:22Z")
There really isn’t a street gang culture in the U.S. anyway, outside of minority and recent immigrant groups. You just don’t see young conservatives of the dominant social group joining gangs (well, except for those weirdos who the Republicans [recruit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot) to do some dirty work). But in Europe, it seemed like it’s semi-acceptable for even middle class kids to run around in tracksuit wearing gangs everywhere from Ireland to Russia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-no-culture-of-football-hooliganism-in-the-us/636567.md?page=7)