# Why is there so much gridlock in US politics today? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 9, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101 "2011-10-09T19:51:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/41 "2011-10-10T20:15:10Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Well, at least the “My opponents are evil because they demonize us!” theory has the virtue of ironic humor. [Yes, yes, very funny, ha-ha.](http://www.amazon.com/Eliminationists-Hate-Radicalized-American-Right/dp/0981576982) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/42 "2011-10-10T20:17:37Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The point is that you immediately display much of the same behavior you accuse your perceived enemies of. > > … > > :smack: You know, I’m sure they say the same thing more or less the other way 'round? Let me create a hypothetical: Republican: “Obama hates America. He hates white people and he hates rich people and he’s a secret muslim and wants to turn this country into a communist police state. We can never compromise with that evil, so we must fight everything he wants to do, no matter what” Third party observer: “The republicans have whipped themselves up into a frenzy about democrats, constantly convincing themselves how they’re pure evil, and they can’t compromise with evil, so they’re blindly obstructionist to anything the democrats want to do, even if it’s something they’d otherwise think was good for the country” Now would you stop in here and say “HERP DERP HYPOCRITE! You’re being critical about how the other party generalizes your side! That’s exactly the behavior that you’re criticizing them for! HAHAHAHA GOTCHA YA” Is that about right? You can replace “third party observer” with “democrat” to nearly the same effect - but I wanted to make it clear that there are people that actually have no blind partisan loyalty. And those people would see the republicans and democrats not as exactly-equally-bad-at-all-times entities, but could actually compare their ideas and behavior. But in any case, a democrat could very well make that same sort of observation and not be hypocrite. Or do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/43 "2011-10-10T20:20:56Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > :smack: You know, I’m sure they say the same thing more or less the other way 'round? The difference being that there happens to be an objective reality, and the Republican Party of today has no relationship with it whatsoever. And you’re no centrist, **bandit** , and trying to pretend you are isn’t going to work with a board full of people who’ve been familiar with your stated politics for the last decade or so. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/44 "2011-10-10T20:23:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The difference being that there happens to be an objective reality, and the Republican Party of today has no relationship with it whatsoever. How often do Republicans label Democrats as terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![Da\_Mikster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Da\_Mikster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Da_Mikster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/45 "2011-10-10T22:25:14Z")
I’m sure there are a few students of history on here. Those who aren’t I’d ask them to google “the Second Great Awakening” for an answer of where we may be headed. When you are so certain that God is “on your side”, then ANY compromise must be viewed as “making a pact with the devil”, and therefore a mortal sin… That is the exact path that led from fiery rhetoric and gridlock in 1830 to civil war in 1860. As for the rise of Plutocracy and Corporatism. Look to the last few decades of the 19th Century, rather than simply the Gilded Age of the 20s… And unfortunately, if the progressives have a budding Theodore Roosevelt in training, I’ve yet to see a glimpse of him/her. The President promised to be him during the last election, but hasn’t delivered. As for another ‘reason’, folks are making money from the status quo, even as bad as it looks - short sellers, defense contractors, lobbyists, big donors, and crooked pollies (in BOTH parties) for a start. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/46 "2011-10-10T23:36:56Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I’m sorry – did you just call the Republican Party…racist? The word “racist” is terribly over used. It can be said that among most white employees racial loyalty is stronger than class loyalty. That is why they are more likely to identify with their white employers and bosses than with their black and Hispanic co-workers. Whites are most likely to vote Democrat in states with low black and Hispanic populations. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/47 "2011-10-11T00:08:22Z")
What the hell? :: walks off muttering to herself, confused :: ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/48 "2011-10-11T01:31:19Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Whites are most likely to vote Democrat in states with low black and Hispanic populations. Living in Florida, I’m pretty sure that’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/49 "2011-10-11T01:44:12Z")
> [@Both Sides in Unison](#): > > It’s their fault. ETA: that’s not quite true, on the SDMB - there aren’t any conservatives who blame it on Democrats. No doubt on other boards there are. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/50 "2011-10-11T03:14:53Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The word “racist” is terribly over used. It can be said that among most white employees racial loyalty is stronger than class loyalty. That is why they are more likely to identify with their white employers and bosses than with their black and Hispanic co-workers. Whites are most likely to vote Democrat in states with low black and Hispanic populations. Or maybe everyone of x race is more likely to identify with others of that background. I’m constantly being told as a white teacher that black and Hispanic teachers have a leg-up in the classroom over me because I’m white. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/51 "2011-10-11T03:59:06Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Now would you stop in here and say “HERP DERP HYPOCRITE! You’re being critical about how the other party generalizes your side! That’s exactly the behavior that you’re criticizing them for! HAHAHAHA GOTCHA YA” The problem is, you are cherry-picking your examples. It’s a trivial and pointless excercise, and it feeds upon itself. What you are doing is deliberately distorting the true picture, and substituting one which filters out most of the message, drops all complexity, ignores any valid reasons why people might hold any given view, and then reduces everything down to a single picture composed of its worst elements. It’s immoral - and stupid. > [@jayjay](#): > > And you’re no centrist, **bandit** , and trying to pretend you are isn’t going to work with a board full of people who’ve been familiar with your stated politics for the last decade or so. Actually, you don’t know nearly as much about politics as you like. But that’s irrelevant. I don’t really care where my politics lie on someone’s arbitrary scheme. Centrism is rather stupid; I believe in what’s _right_, regardless of what politics it is. The difference is that, unlike you, I can happily accept my opponents as mistaken, and not wicked. The difference is profound. Furthermore, one doesn’t have to be some mythical all-neutral centrist to recognize self-serving thinking (which is always poor thinking). Finally, I have noticed that there are two people who claim to be centrists: mercenary types whose politics are based purely on self-interest, a la Bill Clinton, and extremists who like to pretend the electorate is really just like them - and it’s the completely evil “other” who somehow keeps winning elections. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/52 "2011-10-11T04:05:52Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The problem is, you are cherry-picking your examples. It’s a trivial and pointless excercise, and it feeds upon itself. What you are doing is deliberately distorting the true picture, and substituting one which filters out most of the message, drops all complexity, ignores any valid reasons why people might hold any given view, and then reduces everything down to a single picture composed of its worst elements. > > It’s immoral - and stupid. This is ridiculous. Of course I cherry picked hypothetical examples - that’s what one does when they’re demonstrating a logical point in the abstract. Your point was essentially “you’re saying the other side has nasty rhetoric that damages the chance of mutual compromise, and by describing them in that way, you’re painting the other side in a negative light, exactly what you accused them of doing! LOLOL HYPOCRITE” My point was only to demonstrate that your position didn’t logically add up - that you could very well make valid, substantiated criticisms of dishonest, over the top rhetoric done by the other side, and not be a hypocrite. You’re trying to create a position essentially where if one side really did go nuts with the rhetoric, no one could call them out on it, lest they be called hypocrites for saying negative things about the other side saying negative things about them. The actual irony here is that you’re saying I’m reducing the situation in a way that “drops all complexity”, and yet your only contribution to this thread was to say “lolol gotcha ya!” - meanwhile noting that we’re the ones that can’t understand irony. Which is itself ironic. Irony wrapped in irony. Irony^2. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/53 "2011-10-11T04:20:48Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Your point was essentially “you’re saying the other side has nasty rhetoric that damages the chance of mutual compromise, and by describing them in that way, you’re painting the other side in a negative light, exactly what you accused them of doing! LOLOL HYPOCRITE” If I wanted to call someone a hypocrite, I’d call them a hypocrite. I’m not subtle. In point of fact, it’s a rare man who isn’t constantly a hypocrite, and most of those are crazy. What I am pointing out is that… (a) Odds are your opponents aren’t actually even remotely all evil. (b) You’re really arguing against a figment of your imagination. (c) It’s not very sensible. > [@](#): > > The actual irony here is that you’re saying I’m reducing the situation in a way that “drops all complexity”, and yet your only contribution to this thread was to say “lolol gotcha ya!” - meanwhile noting that we’re the ones that can’t understand irony. Which is itself ironic. Irony wrapped in irony. Irony^2. If I wanted to claim a gotcha, I’d be much crueller. It ain’t hard. No, I’m saying you’re wrong because you are. You’re not taking a dispassionate and honest view. You’re starting from a position of anger and hostility, and only later finding reasons for it. And yes, you _are_ doing exactly what you claim the other side is doing. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/54 "2011-10-11T04:22:23Z")
That’s all bullshit, since your first post to this thread was “Well, at least the “My opponents are evil because they demonize us!” theory has the virtue of ironic humor.” Are you seriously contending that’s not an accusation of hypocrisy? What’s the motivation for my anger and hostility that makes me find reasons to justify it? I mean, what’s the source of it in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/55 "2011-10-11T20:05:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It may be hard for you to believe, but once upon a time Congressmen tended to vote in what they thought was the country’s interest. Many Democrats are still like that. > > Thus, if 95% of Democrat Senators support an idea, it will get 57 votes in your example and fail. Several of the Republican Senators might have thought it was also a good idea, but as a matter of course they unite in opposition. > > I agree, if it’s what you’re trying to say, that it may be best for Democrats to also adopt the GOP’s brainless always-vote-the-other-way policy in the present climate. Still, when some Senators prefer to vote their conscience it seems simplistic to pretend GOP intransigence is “normal” and accuse the Democrats of self-inflicted gridlock. So are you saying that the 40 Republicans are not voting in what THEY view as in the country’s best interest or what YOU view as the country’s best interest? And the reason I pointed out the Dems caused the gridlock was the amount of special interests some of the Dem Senators demanded before voting for the bill. Remember the Louisiana Purchase? How about Ben Nelson (D-Neb)? This was gridlock plain and simple to extract more out of the bill for their states? I also disagree with the idea that if Reps vote along party lines, that this is a bad thing. The Reps have a very strong ideology (and while I agree with the financial part of it I disagree with the social religious right) and have taken a position of “stand together or hang separately”. It does cause gridlock but if you ferverently disagree with the Democrat ideology, isn’t that the best road to take? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/56 "2011-10-11T21:08:47Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So are you saying that the 40 Republicans are not voting in what THEY view as in the country’s best interest or what YOU view as the country’s best interest? Unfortunately, what they seem to view as the country’s best interest is “make damned certain that Obama has no positive points to stand on in his re-election campaign, and if that means letting the country go to hell until November, 2012, so be it.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/57 "2011-10-11T23:59:58Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Unfortunately, what they seem to view as the country’s best interest is “make damned certain that Obama has no positive points to stand on in his re-election campaign, and if that means letting the country go to hell until November, 2012, so be it.” Or fortunately depending on your view of Obama. But again, let’s say as a party you vehemently oppose UHC or raising the debt ceiling. Why is it a bad thing to gridlock Congress to prevent it? Let’s try it from a different angle. Republican president and Congress. Vehemently anti-Keynesian and despite what Lobohan says, there are Nobel laureates that do not believe in Keynes. So these Republican decide to return to Federalism and interpret the Constitution very strictly. Federal judges will go back to the pre _NLRB v Jones_ days. \*South Dakota v Dole \*will be gone limiting Congress to only funding those items found in Article I, Section 8. Spending is slashed. The deficit is gone and we start to pay off the debt. 40 Democrat Senators decide to hold hands and threaten to filibuster every bill related to this change in policy. 1. Are they obstructionists/gridlockers? 2. Would you support them in their efforts? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/58 "2011-10-12T01:12:07Z")
There’s a scene in the 1968 comedy [_Wild in the Streets_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_in_the_Streets) where Congress is about to vote on a constitutional amendment (shut up, it’s a comedy) to lower the qualifying age for public office to 14(!), and the young rebels facilitate passage by dumping gallon-jugs of LSD into D.C.'s main drinking-water reservoir (we see all the Congresscritters rolling in the aisles laughing . . .). Might actually help at times like this. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/59 "2011-10-12T02:20:49Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > This is the answer to your question right here. > Some (not all) Republicans (apparently including RR) WANT gridlock, they care about one thing and one thing only, subverting anything the president tries to do in order to paint him a failure. They are happy to sit on their hands to make a political point at the expense of the country. Well, you are half right. I want to subvert Obama because he has stupid ideas that would be bad for the country, not simply because I want to paint him as a failure. And I don’t want Republicans to sit on their hands to make a political point at the expense of the country, I want them to sit on their hands as a matter of policy for the benefit of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101/60 "2011-10-12T04:27:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Or fortunately depending on your view of Obama. But again, let’s say as a party you vehemently oppose UHC or raising the debt ceiling. Why is it a bad thing to gridlock Congress to prevent it? In theory, because when it’s your turn in the big seat the opposition will remember exactly what kind of utter pricks you were for the last 4 years and will similarly gridlock any and everything you try to pass. Admittedly, that’s still a conservative win - if government grinds to a halt, things are pretty well conserved, aren’t they ? Besides, until the Democrat party sends out a search party for their collective balls it won’t happen anyway. So, yeah, in practice, it’s good strategy. It’s also quite the cunt move. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-so-much-gridlock-in-us-politics-today/599101.md?page=4)