# Why is there such a political frenzy about a university education? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2013, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875 "2013-05-09T08:26:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/22 "2013-05-09T22:29:20Z")
College grads make more money, have a lower unemployment rate and become employed again more quickly if they loose their jobs. Those are indisputable facts. Less factual, we are just better off as a more educated society. A formal education helps to expand your mind and give you a framework for thinking and approaching problems. Most people I’ve met who lack education approach problems with either confusion, frustration & anger or intuitive “gut instinct” based on their insular and limited experience. Most of these approaches will produce a wrong solution. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Trades are seen as lower status, and a place for the less intelligent to go. Physical work of any sort is looked down on in modern US society. It’s “looked down on” because anyone can tote a barge or lift a bale. Or we can have automated robots do it for us. There are fewer and fewer jobs that require an organic automaton to do them. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/23 "2013-05-09T22:59:15Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I use the term uni and I’m from the southern US. I’m not a traditional southerner though. > > The ‘liberal conversion bastion’ is really going away as rhetoric. My alma mater had 5x as many people in the College Republicans as in the College Democrats. Conservatives might deride “French Literature” and “Women’s Studies” programs, but probably because the jobs out there aren’t huge in number or high paying. Democrats aren’t really pushing those either - like **Voyager** said, it’s the STEM degrees getting pushed from both sides of the aisle. What college did you graduate from? I find this hard to believe unless ‘Saint’ was in the title of the University. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/24 "2013-05-09T23:21:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > College grads make more money, have a lower unemployment rate and become employed again more quickly if they loose their jobs. Those are indisputable facts. > > Less factual, we are just better off as a more educated society. A formal education helps to expand your mind and give you a framework for thinking and approaching problems. Most people I’ve met who lack education approach problems with either confusion, frustration & anger or intuitive “gut instinct” based on their insular and limited experience. Most of these approaches will produce a wrong solution. > > It’s “looked down on” because anyone can tote a barge or lift a bale. Or we can have automated robots do it for us. There are fewer and fewer jobs that require an organic automaton to do them. I don’t think you know what the trades are. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/25 "2013-05-09T23:54:33Z")
A college education is still the most reliable path to a middle class life. It’s not foolproof, but it is correlated with an increased lifetime earnings of around one million dollars. On the whole, college grads make more money, suffer less unemployment, and are better able to adapt to a changing economy than those without a 4-year degree. This is a fact. One thing you may see is college grads struggling, and not seeming much better off than their less-educated peers, early after graduating. This is true. Most of us spend some time on the bottom rung. But come back in 20 years and see who is still a barista, and who is in a career with an upward trajectory, and you’ll likely find a different story. A college degree isn’t a magic ticket to that kind of career, but it does a lot to open up that option. Nor is the choice of major as important as some would think. We do not, in reality, have a STEM shortage. Indeed, a lot of STEM careers are poorly paid. The average mid-career wage of a biology major is less than the mid-career wage of a film major. Many majors that seem to have no market actually have fairly robust ones- in my field, for example, we are always looking for gender experts. The best choice of majors is one that you are likely to finish, and one that you can get some professional experience in while you are still in school. But even in the worst of cases, a degree in Albanian Folklore still opens up millions of general office jobs, as well as advanced degree opportunities. But wait, you say, do these office jobs need degrees? Often times, that answer actually is yes. When I was a kid, I was told how to learn how to type, because offices always need typists. Today, of course, if you walk in to an office and your only skill is typing, you are going to be laughed out the door. Yesterday’s secretary may have done some typing, answered phones, and done some light filing. Today’s administrative assistant better be an expert computer user, and will likely be managing some complex software, maintaining electronic filing systems, drafting correspondence, light desktop publishing, and doing some level of data analysis. With technology, a single person can do a lot more, but they need more skills than they would have in past decades. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/26 "2013-05-09T23:56:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It’s “looked down on” because anyone can tote a barge or lift a bale. Or we can have automated robots do it for us. There are fewer and fewer jobs that require an organic automaton to do them. The mere fact you describe tradespeople as “organic automatons” shows you are woefully ignorant about the trades. “Toting” or “lifting” a bale isn’t the trades, it’s general labor. And, frankly, we shouldn’t look down on anyone who _is_ working as an “organic automaton”, regardless of reason, because it’s honest work and should be valued as such. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/27 "2013-05-10T00:15:05Z")
My son is planning to go to community college to get a certification in welding. He can finish after 18 months. So at the ripe old age of 19, he’ll be finished with school. And currently there is a huge shortage of welders, with an average starting salary of $45,000. Not a bad deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/28 "2013-05-10T03:21:37Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > . > > … we are just better off as a more educated society. A formal education helps to expand your mind and give you a framework for thinking and approaching problems. Most people I’ve met who lack education approach problems with either confusion, frustration & anger or intuitive “gut instinct” based on their insular and limited experience. Exactly. This is the reason to go to college/university. Education. Knowledge. Exposure to deeper thinking. New challenging ideas. I’ve never regarded the essential purpose of tertiary education to be a meal ticket. At the same time I recognise that is reality for many. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/29 "2013-05-10T03:34:52Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Exactly. This is the reason to go to college/university. Education. Knowledge. Exposure to deeper thinking. New challenging ideas. > > I’ve never regarded the essential purpose of tertiary education to be a meal ticket. At the same time I recognise that is reality for many. I could just as easily call a formal education a security blanket for those who can’t learn or think for themselves. All of things you mention are available outside of colleges/universities. ---
**Author:** ![opossum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/2bfe46/32.png) [@opossum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/opossum)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/30 "2013-05-10T03:48:57Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > What college did you graduate from? I find this hard to believe unless ‘Saint’ was in the title of the University. I’d look at his username and add “Tech” to your rule. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/31 "2013-05-10T04:01:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I could just as easily call a formal education a security blanket for those who can’t learn or think for themselves. All of things you mention are available outside of colleges/universities. You can call “formal education” a crutch or a slanket or or whatever you want, but numbers still show that in aggregate, people who hold bachelor’s degrees or higher make considerably more money over their lifetimes than do those who hold no degree. I can certainly assure you that a degree is a near-necessity in almost every kind of job in STEM. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/32 "2013-05-10T10:26:22Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > It seems to me, though, that as the traditional trades get overlooked, good-quality tradesmen are in great demand and can make very good money. Plumbers, builders etc who aren’t cowboys are pretty rare in many places, and people will pay a premium. > > This is especially true during economic boom times when lots of people are pouring money into property (as epitomised in the UK by Harry Enfield’s “Loadsamoney” character in the 1980s, who was a plasterer). But very good money isn’t all there is to middle-class. An adjunct professor at a community college who makes $30,000/year is middle-class: a welder who makes $50,000/year may well not be. Class identification in America is a complicated thing, and income is only one variable. Education is another one. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/33 "2013-05-10T11:22:57Z")
I think the value of a college education is often overhyped (especially the talk about critical thinking.) But in addition to the material benefits in salary, a degree offers flexibility. Train someone in plumbing and you’ve got a plumber. Train someone in biology and you have a zookeeper, research assistant, professor, environmental scientist, food inspector, park ranger, high school teacher…the list goes on. In this economy, where you can get laid off the moment you step in the door, being able to wear multiple hats can save your life. And what’s a better a hedge against burn-out than being able to say, “You know, I’m going to stop doing X to try my hand at Y.” ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/34 "2013-05-10T16:59:57Z")
The only way to ensure that every young adult attains a college degree is to dumb college down considerably. No one likes to face up to the fact that not everyone has what it takes to succeed - either in education or the workplace. Some folk are gifted in ways other than those which traditionally spell college success. And the least fortunate are not gifted in ANY respect. But it is easier to spout nonsense like “colege degrees for everyone” than to figure out how to realistically incorporate the least advantaged folk into our modern economy. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/35 "2013-05-10T17:07:38Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I could just as easily call a formal education a security blanket for those who can’t learn or think for themselves. All of things you mention are available outside of colleges/universities. One thing available from a good professor not available outside is getting ones ideas challenged. You can easily convince yourself that the selected stuff you read is challenging and that you are now knowledgeable, but how many people test themselves? How many people can critically judge their own writing and thought? There is nothing which improves ones thought processes better than having a paper marked up by a good teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/36 "2013-05-10T17:23:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > One thing available from a good professor not available outside is getting ones ideas challenged. You can easily convince yourself that the selected stuff you read is challenging and that you are now knowledgeable, but how many people test themselves? How many people can critically judge their own writing and thought? There is nothing which improves ones thought processes better than having a paper marked up by a good teacher. Why even go that far? In my freshman comp class on more than one occasion we had to make copies of our papers and pass them to each other to critique. It was blatantly clear to me from their spelling, grammar and command of rhetorical logic many of my classmates shouldn’t have graduated from high school. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/37 "2013-05-10T17:27:32Z")
> [@opossum](#): > > I’d look at his username and add “Tech” to your rule. 🙂 Indeed - Engineers tend to be quite conservative. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/38 "2013-05-10T17:35:30Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > The only way to ensure that every young adult attains a college degree is to dumb college down considerably. I couldn’t agree more. If you take it to ridiculous extremes, you’ll get education inflation, and a University degree will become the equivalent of a high school diploma. I have a niece that just couldn’t cut it in a university setting, she just doesn’t have the mind set that would have made her successful in writing papers and taking tests. We don’t have any more “right” to a university education than we do to a medical school education. And don’t get me started on most for-profit “universities.” ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/39 "2013-05-10T18:48:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But in addition to the material benefits in salary, a degree offers flexibility. Train someone in plumbing and you’ve got a plumber. Train someone in biology and you have a zookeeper, research assistant, professor, environmental scientist, food inspector, park ranger, high school teacher…the list goes on. ." You could as well say : train someone in building trade and you have a plumber, a stonemason, an electrician, a welder, a carpenter, etc… Someone trained as a zookeeper will be mostly useless as a food inspector, in the same way someone trained as a plumber will be mostly useless as a carpenter. He will have some vague, general knowledge about biology that might help if he wants to switch to another job, but the plumber too will have some vague general knowledge about building houses that might help if he wants to switch job. Also, since so many people are mentionning that college educated people make more money, etc…, I would emphasize a point already made : correlation isn’t causation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/40 "2013-05-10T18:48:44Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Why even go that far? In my freshman comp class on more than one occasion we had to make copies of our papers and pass them to each other to critique. It was blatantly clear to me from their spelling, grammar and command of rhetorical logic many of my classmates shouldn’t have graduated from high school. I’ve been in a few critique groups so I know where you’re coming from - but it is nice to know that the person critiquing your paper knows how to spell C-A-T. The probability that a professor can do it is slightly higher. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/41 "2013-05-10T18:50:01Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > The only way to ensure that every young adult attains a college degree is to dumb college down considerably. No one likes to face up to the fact that not everyone has what it takes to succeed - either in education or the workplace. Some folk are gifted in ways other than those which traditionally spell college success. And the least fortunate are not gifted in ANY respect. > > But it is easier to spout nonsense like “colege degrees for everyone” than to figure out how to realistically incorporate the least advantaged folk into our modern economy. This. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875.md?page=3)