# Why is there such a political frenzy about a university education? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2013, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875 "2013-05-09T08:26:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/82 "2013-05-13T22:41:16Z")
> [@Palo\_Verde](#): > > My son is planning to go to community college to get a certification in welding. He can finish after 18 months. So at the ripe old age of 19, he’ll be finished with school. And currently there is a huge shortage of welders, with an average starting salary of $45,000. > > Not a bad deal. That is a trade I would recommend to anyone who thinks they might like it. A lot of welding is on big heavy stuff that could never be shipped after welding, therefore it is impossible to outsource to places with cheaper labor. It takes a while to learn, and is just technical enough that it can’t be taken over by unskilled workers, and yet not such a “black art” that it can’t be learned by anyone with patience and determination. A couple of downsides: A lot of the really well paying gigs will be temporary and involve travel…thinking pipelines, building refinery, that sort of thing. Not something a lot of people with families like, and young single guys need to be alert to not succoming to the temptations of the road. It is very easy to spend a whole paycheck chasing tail in a remote juke-joint. Fumes and flash: A young guy needs to take care of his lungs and eyes if he is to have a long career. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/83 "2013-05-13T23:11:56Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think it depends. If you graduate from Yale’s School of Nursing vs graduate from DeVry and get a higher paying IT job for a fraction of the tuition, it might be a better deal. Undoubtedly there is individual variation, but these are supposed to be institutional numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/84 "2013-05-14T05:07:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Having a bunch of trade skills isn’t a panacea for never being unemployed. A lot of your skills are tied to the housing and construction industries. Those industries have been hit pretty hard since the 2008 financial crisis and a lot of people involved in those industries have had a hard time finding work. > > What do you think Dre has his doctorate in? > > If you aren’t paying for their tuition, how is it your problem? Perhaps you missed the bit at the start where I said I was a vehicle mechanic ( qualified, with a bit of paper to say so ). As long as people drive cars/ motorbikes and need trucks, bulldozers, diggers etc etc I should be able to get a job in the automotive industry. People can get by without music, if they have to, but in a society that has abandoned decent public transport in favour of the individual car, most people must have a car. Dre who? Seriously, did musicians in the 50s and 60s need a degree to make some of the best music ever? People have been making art for centuries without the need of a “qualification” In Thailand, there are many many thousands of people employed in the “artistic” industry that never saw the inside of a school much beyond primary level. Of course an art historian etc would need a degree, but just to produce music, art works, it might be nice to have, but essential- I doubt it. As a tax payer, of course I pay for university education, and the more fanciful courses there are, the higher the tax take required. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/85 "2013-05-14T05:18:01Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’d hope that a college education would lead people to realize he was responding to the “physical jobs” line and not the tradespeople line. His point is that physical work is becoming more and more obsolete, so you need to bring something to the job beyond that. > > As for valuing said people, who said we don’t? That doesn’t mean we want people to pursue that job when there are other options, as said people will eventually be replaced. It’s not good for them to only be able to do a job that can be done more efficiently by machine. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate their work. Just like I’d appreciate the machines’ work. > > And, again, none of this has anything to do with people who work trades. Trades are pure physical work, pretty much by definition. I think you need to go and talk to some tradespeople to realise how absurd your ideas about them just being physical work are. BTW, I have yet to see a robot mechanic in a workshop. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/86 "2013-05-14T05:40:22Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It has nothing to do with “looking down” on people. One problem with trade jobs is that they usually require highly trained people to perform highly technical tasks. So there tends to be a lot of economic pressure to either automate those tasks or simplify them to the point where an untrained high school dropout can do them. For example, there is no such thing as a “tv repairman” anymore. Televisions are essentially now black boxes with no repairable parts. And they are cheap enough that if they break, you just replace the whole thing. > > I don’t think there are too many people like that. It sound more to me like the tradesfolk in this thread are suffering from a case of the "you think your better than me?"s. > > I get that a lot of trades are highly technical and complex. But the benefit of an education goes beyond just training someone to be a competent technician. > > IMHO, one of the big problems about education these days is that it has created this attitude of entitlement. Yes, college is supposed to be creating the leaders of tomorrow. But that doesn’t mean that you can come out of a 4 year program with a bullshit degree and be qualified to lead people. Even if you have a degree in engineering or something business related, you will be working with similarly educated people who have been doing it for decades. > > So yes, I think that education has become somewhat “over-intellectualized” in that a lot of young people think that it disqualifies them from ever having to do real actual work. One of the gripes I have with degree “education”, is that there is a constant push to make some “trades” degree level entry. As a registered nurse for 18 years I can say that a degree is absolutely not required for routine nursing ( I got in just before it was degreeified in my country ), Of course if you want to be a nurse specialist or nurse practitioner, then a degree might be necessary, but that can be obtained later. One of the things that was very noticeable about new grads in nursing was that they had few practical skills, and took a long time to aquire those skills. Considering that nursing is a practical skill with a theoretical component, that is a problem. BTW, I could have gone to England and walked into a nursing job the day after I qualified, but after nursing went “theoretical” it became necessary to have actually worked as a qualified nurse for a year to get a job in England. Another thing, I was actually a patient in hospital for a serious condition, and I was astounded at how useless most of the nurses ( degree level ) were. The best nurse I had during my stay was the old school hospital trained nurse. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/87 "2013-05-14T05:43:23Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s hard to explain to people whose entire self esteem is wrapped up in their college education. I like that! Sooooooo true. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/88 "2013-05-14T14:32:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well congratulations. You’re the first person I’ve heard of in 20 years to hire a TV repairman. I had no idea anyone did that any more. My point is the same. I’m pretty sure you don’t see a lot of appliance repairmen these days. > > Just out of curiosity, what did that set you back? A couple of hundred bucks, most of which I ended up getting reimbursed due to a Samsung [class action settlement](http://www.samsung.com/us/capacitorsettlement/). This was after Samsung paid for a free in-house repair that fixed the TV for a few months before it started having the same problem again. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/89 "2013-05-15T19:05:31Z")
> [@Doggo](#): > > Dre who? Seriously, did musicians in the 50s and 60s need a degree to make some of the best music ever? Dr Dre is a rap musician. He was popular sometime after the 60s. I don’t think he’s actually a medical doctor…or the other kind of doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/90 "2013-05-15T19:18:50Z")
Blue collar work also has this cultural stereotype of hot, uncomfortable, physically punishing factory labor (trade work is also seen as physically demanding, IIRC). Some people prefer “working out” at their job, but a lot of people prefer one where they just sit at a desk and surf the 'Net whenever they need a distraction. College helps with the latter, but not the former. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/91 "2013-05-15T22:43:41Z")
Here’s a nice symptomatic quote I found in the comment section of an article for the local newspaper (admittedly a hive of scum and villainy, as most Internet comment sections are): > [@](#): > > Nobody working a job for which a GED certificate is adequate should be making more than average household income in [this] [c]ounty. True, it says nothing about trade school and training, but GEDs are supposed to be the equivalent of high school, right? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/92 "2013-05-15T23:17:47Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Blue collar work also has this cultural stereotype of hot, uncomfortable, physically punishing factory labor (trade work is also seen as physically demanding, IIRC). Some people prefer “working out” at their job, but a lot of people prefer one where they just sit at a desk and surf the 'Net whenever they need a distraction. College helps with the latter, but not the former. Just as white collar office work has a cultural stereotype of officious idiots lording over disinterested drones surfing the net all day and filling out TPS reports. Ok a lot of white collar office work is actually like that. But a lot of it is actually pretty intellectually intensive. > [@Doggo](#): > > Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post > It’s hard to explain to people whose entire self esteem is wrapped up in their college education. > > I like that! Sooooooo true. How is taking pride in one’s education or professional career different from one taking pride in their tradecraft? > [@Leaper](#): > > Here’s a nice symptomatic quote I found in the comment section of an article for the local newspaper (admittedly a hive of scum and villainy, as most Internet comment sections are): > > “Nobody working a job for which a GED certificate is adequate should be making more than average household income in [this] [c]ounty.” > > True, it says nothing about trade school and training, but GEDs are supposed to be the equivalent of high school, right? That’s an accurate statement. If you only have average to below average skills and education, why would you think the market should pay you an above average salary? People who make six figures generally work in jobs that require high education or some particular skill or qualifications that most people don’t have. Most trades require more than a high school degree / GED. ---
**Author:** ![Shawn\_K\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Shawn\_K\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shawn_K_1)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/93 "2013-05-21T03:22:38Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, again, none of this has anything to do with people who work trades. Trades are pure physical work, pretty much by definition. It’s true that a large part of the trades is physical, but there’s also a lot of mental work on any given day too. Diagnosing problems, reading diagrams/blueprints, coming up with creative solutions to problems and that sort of thing. As for the pay grade. Trades can pay quite well if you’re willing to relocate. I know where I live fully ticketed welders that run their own truck make $120+ per hour. Automotive Mechanics make $30+, Heavy Duty Mechanics $40+, I believe Electricians are $35+, Carpenters and Plumbers usually make under $30 I believe but many of them (especially carpenters) end up opening their own business and seem to do alright. I don’t know how that compares to the average university degree but it’s decent enough money to live on and have a bit of a life. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/94 "2013-05-21T10:41:22Z")
> [@Shawn\_K\_1](#): > > It’s true that a large part of the trades is physical, but there’s also a lot of mental work on any given day too. > > Diagnosing problems, reading diagrams/blueprints, coming up with creative solutions to problems and that sort of thing. > > As for the pay grade. Trades can pay quite well if you’re willing to relocate. I know where I live fully ticketed welders that run their own truck make $120+ per hour. > > Automotive Mechanics make $30+, Heavy Duty Mechanics $40+, I believe Electricians are $35+, Carpenters and Plumbers usually make under $30 I believe but many of them (especially carpenters) end up opening their own business and seem to do alright. > > I don’t know how that compares to the average university degree but it’s decent enough money to live on and have a bit of a life. I think the issue with the physical work comes at the end of a career; even moderate physical activity can be brutal if you have a bad back or a bad knee, and while healthy living can mitigate that, it’s not foolproof. My dad fell three feet off a ladder and shattered his ankle when he was in his mid-to-late 50s. It was painful, and bothersome, and took years to heal properly. It had zero impact on his ability to make a living. If he’d been a tradesman, he might have been effectively retired at that point, and lost the highest earning ten years of his career. So many people have some sort of incident like that in their 50s or 60s. Even if it’s just in the last couple years before retirement that age catches up to you, a couple years is a long damn time when your in them. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/95 "2013-05-30T15:24:50Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > That ranking puts various DeVry campuses at #74, #75, and #79. Yale is #92. > > I am unconvinced that DeVry is a better investment than Yale. A lot of people bash DeVry and other “For-Profit” schools as being a travesty. True, they might not be the best deal for many people, but I think they serve a valuable purpose. Since the for-profit schools care more about making money and less on being seen as prestigious or racking up publications or discoveries, they are able to educate a lot of people who are willing to pay and willing to try but who get turned down elsewhere. Yes, there are concerns over standards and to what extent one is “paying for a degree” rather than working on it, but schools like DeVry are accredited and that does require standards. Guy: “I don’t have the best background but I think I can learn and want to try for a degree.” Traditional School: “Get lost, there are plenty of people with a 3.9 GPA and excellent recommendations clamoring for the spaces in our program.” For-Profit School: “Sure. That’ll be $X for the first semester. Do well enough on the tests and assignments and that degree is yours. Do poorly, and you flunk out. We’re growing like mad. If you know any PhD’s, send their resumes to us because we’re going to need more instructors soon.” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/96 "2013-08-09T21:06:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And, again, none of this has anything to do with people who work trades. Trades are pure physical work, pretty much by definition. > > Wrong. In one sense you could say the trades _are_ physical work, in that the practitioner works on or creates an actual physical object, but tradespeople are definitely not manual laborers. If you get the right group of tradespeople together and some workers to help them, plus the requisite tools and machinery, lumber, and so on, they can build you a house where there was a vacant lot before. I call that pretty impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Doggo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/87869e/32.png) [@Doggo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doggo)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/97 "2013-08-26T08:30:27Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, again, none of this has anything to do with people who work trades. Trades are pure physical work, pretty much by definition. Wrong. The other day I had to move several very large and heavy concrete drain pipes up a slope. Had I just used brute force, they’d still be at the bottom. I had to use physics to be able to move them up the slope without damaging my body. Just a very simple example. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875/98 "2013-08-27T19:53:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > As are mine. > > [In contrast, this idiot is studying for a masters in “liberal studies” at Duke and literally lives in a van (possibly) down by the river.](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/14/education/edlife/ken-ilgunas-lives-in-a-van-while-a-graduate-student-at-duke-university.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) I heard about this man on NPR; this whole project seems somewhat more like a personal experiment, rather than someone just deciding to go completely off the grid and live like a wild man. And he’s a published author which has to count for something. One published book, I know, is not an E-ticket to a lifetime six-figure income, but it’s a promising sign that that he won’t ever have to ask anybody if they want fries with that. Who are we to say if he would have been more successful, by any measure, in one of the more utilitarian fields? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-there-such-a-political-frenzy-about-a-university-education/657875.md?page=4)