# Why is this case (Marvin Louis Guy) not clear self-defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970 "2014-09-19T20:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/1 "2014-09-19T20:20:16Z")
> **[Texas Wants to Execute Man Who Killed Home Intruder Who Turned Out to Be SWAT...](https://reason.com/2014/09/17/texas-wants-to-execute-man-who-killed-ho/)** > > Jail Photo Attempting to serve a search warrant by entering a house through a window got Killeen, Texas, Police Detective... also [http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Documents-Detail-Crime-Scene-Search-After-Killeen-Officers-Shot-259291891.html?utm\_source=feedburner&utm\_medium=feed&utm\_campaign=Feed%3A+KWTX-headlines+(KWTX+-+Headlines)](http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Documents-Detail-Crime-Scene-Search-After-Killeen-Officers-Shot-259291891.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+KWTX-headlines+%28KWTX+-+Headlines%29) Basically, police get a “no knock” warrant. In the middle of the night, break into the guy’s apartment. The guy shoots at them, kills one of the police officers, wounds another one. Since it is a “no knock” warrant, that means the police didn’t identify themselves, so to me, he was obviously defending himself. I understand that the state wants to prosecute - after all, a police officer is dead, but I really don’t see (unless there is some clear evidence that he knew he was shooting at police) how he can possibly be convicted. He definitely shouldn’t be, IMO. I also don’t see how it is relevant (to the murder charge, that is) whether there were or, as the case is, were not any drugs found in his apartment after the shooting. Am I missing something here that makes the outcome here non-obvious? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/2 "2014-09-19T20:27:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Since it is a “no knock” warrant, that means the police didn’t identify themselves, so to me, he was obviously defending himself. I’m not sure if this part is true. No knock, as I understand it, means that they can break down the door without warning. They should still identify themselves as police officers when coming through the door, usually by shouting. > **[No-knock warrant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant)** > > In the United States, a no-knock warrant is a warrant issued by a judge that allows law enforcement to enter a property without immediate prior notification of the residents, such as by knocking or ringing a doorbell. In most cases, law enforcement will identify themselves just before they forcefully enter the property. It is issued under the belief that any evidence they hope to find may be destroyed between the time that police identify themselves and the time they secure the area, or in the ev... The one link I read did not mention whether they did or did not identify themselves as police officers. ETA: Just read the other. It doesn’t say whether police identified themselves or not. Which is bad reporting. A reporter should have asked that question. If he fired on them after they identified themselves, then the charge is appropriate. If they did not identify themselves then…well, that’s another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/3 "2014-09-19T20:33:09Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I’m not sure if this part is true. No knock, as I understand it, means that they can break down the door without warning. They should still identify themselves as police officers when coming through the door, usually by shouting. > > [No-knock warrant - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant) > > The one link I read did not mention whether they did or did not identify themselves as police officers. > > ETA: Just read the other. It doesn’t say whether police identified themselves or not. Which is bad reporting. A reporter should have asked that question. [http://www.kxxv.com/link/695406/kpd-release](http://www.kxxv.com/link/695406/kpd-release) “The TRU was beginning to breach the window when the 49 year old male inside, opened fire striking four officers.” They did not fully get inside yet - so I would think they didn’t identify themselves. And what the hell is it with the “no knock” warrants? Police are practically asking to be shot when they do that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/4 "2014-09-19T20:40:59Z")
This doesn’t happen often but I agree with Terr. You have a situation where somebody is forcibly breaking into your house. That’s clear self-defense. Unless it’s the police breaking into your house with a warrant. But here’s the kicker. The person inside the house has no way of knowing that the people breaking into his house are police with a warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/5 "2014-09-19T20:41:52Z")
It’s going to be his word against the other cops. Any takers on the bet, here? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/6 "2014-09-19T20:44:48Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This doesn’t happen often but I agree with Terr. > > You have a situation where somebody is forcibly breaking into your house. That’s clear self-defense. Unless it’s the police breaking into your house with a warrant. > > But here’s the kicker. The person inside the house has no way of knowing that the people breaking into his house are police with a warrant. I have to agree. If the police did not identify themselves than it is reasonable to assume the suspect \*believed \*that criminals were breaching his home to do him wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/7 "2014-09-19T21:01:12Z")
Even if they _did_ identify themselves, why should the guy have to believe them? Anyone could break into someone’s house and yell “police” and by the time the guy figures out that it’s not true he’s tied up and robbed or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/8 "2014-09-19T21:25:50Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s going to be his word against the other cops. Any takers on the bet, here? From the link I posted above: “The TRU was beginning to breach the window when the 49 year old male inside, opened fire striking four officers.” It’s a “no knock” warrant. It would be pretty hard for the police to claim that as they were “beginning to breach a window” they identified themselves to Guy. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/9 "2014-09-19T21:28:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Am I missing something here that makes the outcome here non-obvious? What the outcome _should_ be is obvious. Unfortunately, it’s not a sure thing. Personally, I think that there should basically be no such thing as a no-knock warrant. If you actually _need_ to make a no-knock entry (and no, protecting hypothetical evidence of a hypothetical crime doesn’t count), it is under circumstances in which a warrant is not legally required anyway. When the cops go out of their way to stack the deck against someone just minding their own business - breaking into the house when the homeowner’s most likely to be asleep, for example - it’s their own damn fault if they get themselves shot. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/10 "2014-09-19T21:30:54Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It’s going to be his word against the other cops. Any takers on the bet, here? Depends; what color is he? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/11 "2014-09-19T21:32:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This doesn’t happen often but I agree with Terr. I hate it when that happens. You didn’t see this stuff happening on _Dragnet_. ISTM that police have become more militarised in the past couple/few decades. I was working in L.A. when the North Hollywood shootout happened. The bank robbers had illegal automatic weapons, and the cops were armed with their .38 Special revolvers (some possibly had 9 mm pistols) and 12-gauge shotguns. During the course of the shootout, cops went across the street to B & B Sales to borrow semi-automatic AR-15 rifles. (I bought a few guns from B & B.) I recall that after the shootout, police forces started to be equipped with M-16s modified to only fire semi-automatically. Personally, I think police should have access to weapons equal to what criminals might have. But ‘recently’ cops seem to fashion themselves soldiers. They seem to have gone from ‘There are cops, scum, and morons’ to ‘There are Badass Super Warriors, scum, and other scum’. There have been far too many cases of innocent homeowners being killed or terrorised by cops violently breaking into the wrong house. I recall a case where the L.A. Sheriff’s Department had its eye on someone’s property in Malibu (its forfeiture would have done much for their coffers), and they fortunately received an anonymous tip that the homeowner was growing marijuana there. The guy’s dozing in his chair, when suddenly a bunch of armed men burst in. Rudely awakened, he picks up a handgun and is killed. Of course there was no marijuana anywhere on the property. I feel that any innocent person who kills a cop during a no-knock break-in, and survives, should not be charged with a crime. Self-defense is justified when a person is in fear of his life. If he doesn’t know that the intruders are cops (and it’s unlikely he would, since he may not be able to process the announcement in the fraction of a second between them shouting and the flash-bangs going off), then it’s clearly self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/12 "2014-09-19T21:37:12Z")
Meantime the guy is in jail on $3M bail. I looked around and I don’t think anyone started a fundraiser for him. If/when they do, I think I will contribute. And I rarely do (never did for Zimmerman, although I thought he was being railroaded). ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/13 "2014-09-19T21:39:43Z")
Piss shit garbage un-American police state dogshit. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/14 "2014-09-19T21:46:13Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Piss shit garbage un-American police state dogshit. Take this nonsense to The BBQ Pit. This is supposed to be a debate, not a place to rant. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/15 "2014-09-19T22:04:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Take this nonsense to The BBQ Pit. > This is supposed to be a debate, not a place to rant. > > [/Moderating] I was out of line. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/16 "2014-09-19T22:53:33Z")
In my opinion, the police should be required to identify themselves as police in a reasonable manner and they should make a reasonable effort to present their warrant to the homeowner and/or occupants. The only situation where the police might be justified in entering a house without warning would be when there is reasonable grounds to believe there might be a hostage situation. And by reasonable grounds, I don’t mean “Well, it’s possible there are people inside we don’t know about and if they were inside, they could conceivably be being held hostage.” ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/17 "2014-09-19T23:11:24Z")
Googling this, people are comparing this to a case in Texas in December, when one Henry Goedrich Magee killed a police officer in a no-knock raid looking for marijuana. Unlike with Guy, the Grand Jury chose not to indict Magee. Interestingly, in Magee’s case, the police had already broken in to the home, making it slightly more likely that they had been able to identify themselves as police officers than in Guy’s case. Also they did apparently find some drugs in Magee’s home, though not what they were apparently expecting. Aside from that, [I cannot think of any reason why the justice system would be treating Guy differently from Magee.](http://thefreethoughtproject.com/prosecutor-seeking-death-penalty-officer-killed-knock-raid/) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/18 "2014-09-19T23:43:53Z")
I tend to think one shouldn’t shoot at someone unless you can actually clearly see who your shooting at. Since swat teams usually have clothing that clearly identifies them as such, I think Marvin is responsible for the deaths caused by his shooting (though even then, I think manslaughter is probably a more appropriate charge). But I don’t know what the actual legal standard is. Texas certainly has a reputation for having maximalist self-defense laws, so I wouldn’t be surprised if blazing away at any thing that scares you, sight unseen, is considered kosher. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/19 "2014-09-20T00:10:34Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I tend to think one shouldn’t shoot at someone unless you can actually clearly see who your shooting at. Since swat teams usually have clothing that clearly identifies them as such, I think Marvin is responsible for the deaths caused by his shooting (though even then, I think manslaughter is probably a more appropriate charge). > > But I don’t know what the actual legal standard is. Texas certainly has a reputation for having maximalist self-defense laws, so I wouldn’t be surprised if blazing away at any thing that scares you, sight unseen, is considered kosher. It’s not “anything that scares you”. It is someone breaking through your window, in the middle of the night. If that is not a classic case of self-defense, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/20 "2014-09-20T00:29:19Z")
I think the prosecution’s argument is going to be that self defense is an affirmative defense, that these were police officers executing a lawful warrant, and that the officers announced they were police while they were entering. So, the onus is on Gay to prove that he didn’t know they were cops and had reasonable reason to fear for his life. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970.md?page=2)