# Why is this case (Marvin Louis Guy) not clear self-defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970 "2014-09-19T20:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/21 "2014-09-20T00:30:00Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Since swat teams usually have clothing that clearly identifies them as such, I think Marvin is responsible for the deaths caused by his shooting (though even then, I think manslaughter is probably a more appropriate charge). [https://www.google.com/search?q=SWAT+team&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k8kcVNnmK5GvogSvvoKABA&ved=0CAgQ\_AUoAQ&biw=1227&bih=937](https://www.google.com/search?q=SWAT+team&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=k8kcVNnmK5GvogSvvoKABA&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1227&bih=937) Lots of the SWAT teams pictured here have no logo or ID easily visible. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/22 "2014-09-20T00:37:53Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I tend to think one shouldn’t shoot at someone unless you can actually clearly see who your shooting at. Since swat teams usually have clothing that clearly identifies them as such, I think Marvin is responsible for the deaths caused by his shooting (though even then, I think manslaughter is probably a more appropriate charge). He was shooting at the guy dressed entirely in black smashing through his window at 5:30 in the morning. That’s good enough, as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/23 "2014-09-20T00:48:27Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > He was shooting at the guy dressed entirely in black smashing through his window at 5:30 in the morning. That’s good enough, as far as I’m concerned. Who was a law enforcement officer carrying out a legal entry and search pursuant to a warrant. Texas law says that it’s only lawful to use force to resist an arrest or search by a law enforcement officer: > [@](#): > > if, before the actor offers any resistance, the > peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts > to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; > and > > when and to the degree the actor reasonably > believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself > against the peace officer’s (or other person’s) use or attempted use > of greater force than necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/24 "2014-09-20T00:53:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Who was a law enforcement officer carrying out a legal entry and search pursuant to a warrant. An entry that _should not_ be legal, precisely because this shock and awe bullshit is deliberately intended to cause the kind of disorientation that causes incidents like this. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/25 "2014-09-20T01:09:32Z")
Should or not, it is. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/26 "2014-09-20T01:21:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Who was a law enforcement officer carrying out a legal entry and search pursuant to a warrant. Texas law says that it’s only lawful to use force to resist an arrest or search by a law enforcement officer: He wasn’t resisting an arrest or search if it was an unnamed person breaking through his window. You can’t just assume someone is a police officer, they need to identify themselves. Otherwise, you’d have to accept being detained or searched by anyone you don’t know, since they might be a cop. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/27 "2014-09-20T01:28:06Z")
According to the arrest affidavit, the officers did identify themselves when they entered the residence. But beyond that, I don’t know if what you’re saying is true or not, legally. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/28 "2014-09-20T01:42:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > **Why is this case (Marvin Louis Guy) not clear self-defense?** He’s black, they’re cops. Most Americans fear and hate black men, and regard their lives as worthless. Self defense is for non-blacks. And most Americans regard cops as near-gods who can do no wrong and whose every action should be praised. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Depends; what color is he? Black, naturally. Which means that most Americans _especially_ cops are going to look at him as deserving death on general principles. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/29 "2014-09-20T02:48:26Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > According to the arrest affidavit, the officers did identify themselves when they entered the residence. But beyond that, I don’t know if what you’re saying is true or not, legally. Cite? In the link I gave earlier, the police department stated that the officers were shot as they were “beginning to breach the window”. That’s _before_ they entered the residence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/30 "2014-09-20T08:12:20Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > According to the arrest affidavit, the officers did identify themselves when they entered the residence. But beyond that, I don’t know if what you’re saying is true or not, legally. It was 5:30 in the morning. There’s a good chance Guy wasn’t even awake when the police entered his house. So they may have made a token announcement that they were police but that shouldn’t be considered adequate in my opinion. As I said above, I think the standard should be the police have to identify themselves in a reasonable manner. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/31 "2014-09-20T08:28:44Z")
As to the usual excuse that the suspect could flush drugs unless they do a no-knock, you’d think someone by now would have found a way to put a catch on the sewer line outside the house so this wouldn’t be possible. Hell most houses have an access in the back yard where simply blocking the pipe would stop anything flushed from being lost. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/32 "2014-09-20T10:18:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > According to the arrest affidavit, the officers did identify themselves when they entered the residence. But beyond that, I don’t know if what you’re saying is true or not, legally. Shouting the word “police” is no more identifying yourself as an officer of the law than my claiming to be Vladimir Putin on a message board. Since the Magna Carta, English and later American law has recognized ghe validity of defending a home at the threshold. Presenting badges and a warrant for examination at the door is how such identification takes place. The thing about guns is that they don’t parry. You either shoot, or you wait to see if he shoots. SWAT officers come in with weapons drawn and pointed–just like murderers and home invaders do–and if you hesitate, you are completely at the mercy of the officers. Or the murderers. Or the home invaders. You’ll find out which, presently. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/33 "2014-09-20T13:40:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He’s black, they’re cops. Most Americans fear and hate black men, and regard their lives as worthless. Self defense is for non-blacks. And most Americans regard cops as near-gods who can do no wrong and whose every action should be praised. > > Black, naturally. Which means that most Americans _especially_ cops are going to look at him as deserving death on general principles. Der Trihs, this is exactly the sort of generalizing, hate-filled post you’ve been warned about - and complained about being warned about - before. You have got to learn that being a rhetorical bully - maximalizing your hatred/anger - only serves to get yourself into trouble. Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/34 "2014-09-20T14:09:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite? In the link I gave earlier, the police department stated that the officers were shot as they were “beginning to breach the window”. That’s _before_ they entered the residence. Right here: [http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Killeen-Man-Charged-In-Veteran-SWAT-Officers-Shooting-Death-263742841.html](http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/Killeen-Man-Charged-In-Veteran-SWAT-Officers-Shooting-Death-263742841.html) > [@](#): > > The affidavit said the officers announced that they were police as they tried to gain entry to Guy’s apartment. But I don’t know if that was before or after the shooting happened. To be clear, I’m not saying that Gay’s shooting the people he thought were criminals was necessarily a wrong decision, given the information he knew. I’m just saying that, given it were the police acting lawfully, it was still illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/35 "2014-09-20T14:55:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was 5:30 in the morning. There’s a good chance Guy wasn’t even awake when the police entered his house. So they may have made a token announcement that they were police but that shouldn’t be considered adequate in my opinion. As I said above, I think the standard should be the police have to identify themselves in a reasonable manner. > [@Sailboat](#): > > Shouting the word “police” is no more identifying yourself as an officer of the law than my claiming to be Vladimir Putin on a message board. > > \ > > SWAT officers come in with weapons drawn and pointed–just like murderers and home invaders do–and if you hesitate, you are completely at the mercy of the officers. Or the murderers. Or the home invaders. You’ll find out which, presently. When I was a kid, my mother would tell me to clean my room, ‘And be sure to get under the bed!’ So I’d shove everything under my bed and then crawl under the bed. My mom would come home from work and I’d say, ‘I cleaned my room, and I got under the bed!’ Clearly she wanted me to _clean_ under the bed. I intentionally interpreted her instruction literally. These police home invasions seem to be rules-lawyering. Technically they identify themselves as police. But in practice they are not identifying themselves at all. I understand that in trials there is the ‘reasonable person’ standard. The jury is asked ‘Would a _reasonable person_ do what the defendant did?’ If I were sound asleep and someone broke my door down and shouted ‘Police!’ all I would hear is the sound of the door crashing. Being asleep, I wouldn’t be coherent enough to interpret anything anyone said. It is unreasonable to believe that identification has been made. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/36 "2014-09-20T16:32:09Z")
This case sounds eerily similar to the case of [Gregory Arthur Ott](http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Texas-Ranger-s-killer-wins-parole-after-26-years-1501105.php) in the 70s. At that time there was no such thing as a no-knock warrant. There were a number of details that support a special circumstances claim. Among them, and not introduced a trial (crappy attorney), was the fact that a month prior to the killing Ott and a girlfriend were the victims of a home invasion in which he was tied up and forced to watch his girlfriend being raped. IMHO, if the jury had actually believed that Ott knowingly killed a Texas Ranger he would have gotten the death penalty instead of life. (Full disclosure: Ott was a friend of my sister’s at the time, although I never met him.) ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/37 "2014-09-20T16:33:46Z")
I also note that Greg Ott is white. ---
**Author:** ![MrYoung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@MrYoung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrYoung)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/38 "2014-09-20T18:17:14Z")
Let’s be real they identified themselves after the shoots were fired and at that point it was too late the late officer that was breaching his window was already dead. The only thing I see so far is that the other man this happened to was white and i love the media we show a nice family picture of the white man but for the black man we will show him in a police mugshot because in this country white is right, and black is just the trash we parade around like s$it… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/39 "2014-09-20T18:36:41Z")
> [@MrYoung](#): > > Let’s be real they identified themselves after the shoots were fired and at that point it was too late the late officer that was breaching his window was already dead. > > The only thing I see so far is that the other man this happened to was white and i love the media we show a nice family picture of the white man but for the black man we will show him in a police mugshot because in this country white is right, and black is just the trash we parade around like s$it… Was [Todd Blair](http://gawker.com/5737240/police-strike-force-shoots-man-armed-with-golf-club-over-his-roommates-drugs) black? [Jose Guerena](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/17/jose-guerena-pima-county-lawsuit_n_926454.html)? [Derek Copp](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/09/raid-of-the-day-derek-cop_n_3247811.html)? [Cheryl Lynn Noel](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/06/raid-of-the-day-cheryl-ly_n_2630163.html)? ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970/40 "2014-09-20T18:50:01Z")
I don’t know, **Terr**. There aren’t any pictures in those links. What was your point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-case-marvin-louis-guy-not-clear-self-defense/698970.md?page=3)