# Why is this insulting? Warning in Great Debates **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 11, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383 "2012-09-11T08:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/21 "2012-09-11T12:17:35Z")
Look, them’s the rules: You **may not** describe another poster as having an attribute that would normally be considered negative. I.e., no matter how blatant, you **may not** call out another poster as a racist. You **may** say that their words are racist, but not that _they_ are. You can’t call another poster a liar, either – only say that their words are a lie (but you must leave wiggle room for the possibility that the words are not their own. Or that they actually believe what they’re saying. Or something… :rolleyes:\*\*) As mentioned, them’s the rules. I don’t have to like it, you don’t have to like it, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/22 "2012-09-11T12:29:06Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > As mentioned, them’s the rules. I don’t have to like it, you don’t have to like it, but there it is. Yup. If the rule was that you couldn’t call a statement stupid, racist, bigoted, etc., then that would make sense. If the rule was that, in an appropriate context, you could call a person stupid, racist, bigoted, etc. (e.g., in a discussion of whether a particular position is bigoted, you could call a person a bigot), that’d make sense. But the current position is both clear and totally weird to me. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/23 "2012-09-11T12:55:22Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > **martu** , you are failing the [Turing test](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test). The loop ```auto for (int i = 0; i > 0; i++) ``` never halts, that do I win? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is _your_ definition of “insult”? I guess it has to be derogative but also the language would matter, being called not very nice wouldn’t bother me but being called a c\*nt would. Words like bigot, racist, obese, coward do not have negative connotations to me, why should they? They are perfectly cromulent (some humor, does this mean I pass the Turing test? maybe not) English words that I find useful. > [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Look, them’s the rules: You **may not** describe another poster as having an attribute that would normally be considered negative. > > I.e., no matter how blatant, you **may not** call out another poster as a racist. You **may** say that their words are racist, but not that _they_ are. You can’t call another poster a liar, either – only say that their words are a lie (but you must leave wiggle room for the possibility that the words are not their own. Or that they actually believe what they’re saying. Or something… :rolleyes:\*\*) > > As mentioned, them’s the rules. I don’t have to like it, you don’t have to like it, but there it is. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yup. If the rule was that you couldn’t call a statement stupid, racist, bigoted, etc., then that would make sense. If the rule was that, in an appropriate context, you could call a person stupid, racist, bigoted, etc. (e.g., in a discussion of whether a particular position is bigoted, you could call a person a bigot), that’d make sense. But the current position is both clear and totally weird to me. So I can say that **magellan01** ’s view are bigoted but not that he is a bigot. I can’t see the functional difference but Ok. How can I state without breaking the rules that I think he is a coward for not admitting his views are bigoted? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/24 "2012-09-11T12:57:44Z")
> [@martu](#): > > How can I state without breaking the rules that I think he is a coward for not admitting his views are bigoted? Have you ever considered not trying to find workarounds to the rules? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/25 "2012-09-11T13:04:39Z")
dammit ```auto for (int i = 0; i >= 0; i++) ``` never halts! ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/26 "2012-09-11T13:06:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you ever considered not trying to find workarounds to the rules? Just asking for consistency, one can it seems (in a round about way) call someone a bigot but not a coward. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/27 "2012-09-11T13:07:04Z")
> [@martu](#): > > So I can say that **magellan01** ’s view are bigoted but not that he is a bigot. I can’t see the functional difference but Ok. It’s what we referred to in our house as “state vs trait”. You can criticize someone for their current state “You sound whiny” or “That’s a selfish attitude” but not go after their trait (which would be a fundamental part of who they are) “You are such a whiner” or “You are a selfish person”. State comments address an action or current behavior, which might be out of character, you might be in a bad mood, not realize how you come off and can be changed. Trait comments comment on who they are as a person, not just at the moment, and run the risk of being more hurtful, longer lasting and cause defensiveness. These are important distinctions for relationship building (between friends, siblings, parent to child), but less important in other settings. Here, we consider ourselves in a community and want the participants to build relationships as community members. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/28 "2012-09-11T13:09:30Z")
> [@martu](#): > > dammit > > ```auto > > for (int i = 0; i >= 0; i++) > > ``` > > never halts! Bah, it’s trivial to make a computer recognize if a **specific** program never halts. You just can’t make it decide whether an **arbitrary** program halts. I’m onto your games, Cleverbot. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/29 "2012-09-11T13:11:38Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Bah, it’s trivial to make a computer recognize if a **specific** program never halts. You just can’t make it decide whether an **arbitrary** program halts. I’m onto your games, Cleverbot. Heh you got me. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/30 "2012-09-11T13:37:35Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > It’s what we referred to in our house as “state vs trait”. You can criticize someone for their current state “You sound whiny” or “That’s a selfish attitude” but not go after their trait (which would be a fundamental part of who they are) “You are such a whiner” or “You are a selfish person”. > > State comments address an action or current behavior, which might be out of character, you might be in a bad mood, not realize how you come off and can be changed. > > Trait comments comment on who they are as a person, not just at the moment, and run the risk of being more hurtful, longer lasting and cause defensiveness. > > These are important distinctions for relationship building (between friends, siblings, parent to child), but less important in other settings. Here, we consider ourselves in a community and want the participants to build relationships as community members. Thanks I can see the distinction between the argument and argumentee, but again fail to see why calling someone selfish _if they are indeed selfish,_ is an insult. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/31 "2012-09-11T13:41:57Z")
> [@martu](#): > > How can I state without breaking the rules that I think he is a coward for not admitting his views are bigoted? Simple. Start a Pit thread, and put a link in the non-Pit thread with a note for the person to join you there. **martu** : The mods don’t want to have to be in a position of being the arbiters of truth every time someone claims another person is “selfish” or “bigoted”. Those are not always objectively determinable. And in this particular case, you weren’t even referencing a specific post-- just calling him a coward and a bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/32 "2012-09-11T13:55:31Z")
> [@martu](#): > > Is it the coward bit or bigot bit that is insulting? Yes. > [@martu](#): > > What is the difference? If someone is posting something bigoted then they are a bigot aren’t they? Possibly, but it doesn’t really matter. In Great Debates you’re generally supposed to be talking about the ideas and arguments that are being posted. What they say about the person who is making the posts usually doesn’t matter. > [@martu](#): > > How can I state without breaking the rules that I think he is a coward for not admitting his views are bigoted? Say it in the BBQ Pit and you can phrase it however you like. In Great Debates, you have to comment on the argument itself and don’t make derogatory comments about the poster. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/33 "2012-09-11T14:00:30Z")
> [@martu](#): > > So I can say that **magellan01** ’s view are bigoted but not that he is a bigot. I can’t see the functional difference but Ok. There is no difference except that the latter will get you warned and the former won’t. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/34 "2012-09-11T14:09:22Z")
> [@martu](#): > > _if they are indeed selfish_ Perhaps because its not your place to judge what is selfish or not. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/35 "2012-09-11T14:12:35Z")
No, I clearly remember voting for martu as official Judger of What is Selfish. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/36 "2012-09-11T14:22:29Z")
> [@bucketybuck](#): > > Perhaps because its not your place to judge what is selfish or not. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, I clearly remember voting for martu as official Judger of What is Selfish. You are both something I can’t say but thanks for playing, consider ‘in my opinion’ tacked on to the end if it makes you happy. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/37 "2012-09-11T14:23:50Z")
I don’t see why you can’t say charming and delightful with great hair. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/38 "2012-09-11T14:24:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Simple. Start a Pit thread, and put a link in the non-Pit thread with a note for the person to join you there. > > **martu** : The mods don’t want to have to be in a position of being the arbiters of truth every time someone claims another person is “selfish” or “bigoted”. Those are not always objectively determinable. And in this particular case, you weren’t even referencing a specific post-- just calling him a coward and a bigot. OK I can see that would be the approach with the least administration required, makes sense. > [@Marley23](#): > > Yes. > > Possibly, but it doesn’t really matter. In Great Debates you’re generally supposed to be talking about the ideas and arguments that are being posted. What they say about the person who is making the posts usually doesn’t matter. > > Say it in the BBQ Pit and you can phrase it however you like. In Great Debates, you have to comment on the argument itself and don’t make derogatory comments about the poster. Ok thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/39 "2012-09-11T14:27:08Z")
> [@martu](#): > > You are both something I can’t say but thanks for playing, consider ‘in my opinion’ tacked on to the end if it makes you happy. Everybody understands it’s your opinion. That doesn’t change anything. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383/40 "2012-09-11T14:40:15Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t see why you can’t say charming and delightful with great hair. I have no idea about your hair. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-insulting-warning-in-great-debates/634383.md?page=3)