# Why is this site overwhelmingly atheist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938 "2014-08-30T04:04:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/361 "2014-09-11T23:08:33Z")
Or at least Satan. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/362 "2014-09-11T23:33:19Z")
> [@Subterraneanus](#): > > You’re referring to the informal fallacy of _false dilemma_. The law of excluded middle stipulates that either p or ~p must be the case. Dropzone was referring to [Fallacy of the excluded middle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) not [Law of excluded middle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle). A Wiki search for [Fallacy of the excluded middle](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle&redirect=no) redirects to the article for “False dilemma.” ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/363 "2014-09-12T00:15:48Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Dropzone was referring to [Fallacy of the excluded middle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma) not [Law of excluded middle](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle). A Wiki search for [Fallacy of the excluded middle](http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle&redirect=no) redirects to the article for “False dilemma.” Fair enough, but it’s best not to use that term in order to avoid ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/364 "2014-09-12T01:08:31Z")
> [@simster](#): > > unfounded accusation and an idiotic post. > […] “Dear Pot: Yes, I am black. (SIGNED) Kettle.” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/365 "2014-09-12T01:16:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Biblical prophecies seldom have the hand of God in them. (Jesus returning is an exception.) Look at the many gloom and doom prophecies in the OT. Did they come true because of the misbehavior of Judea, or did God make them come true? Yes to both. God punishes for misbehavior, in the OT. > [@](#): > > And if prophecies come true because of god - and they depend on many factors - then it means that God is controlling everything and we don’t have free will. No, it means that God _could_ control everything. The Bible is pretty consistent in the OT. God tells people what he wants and then sits back and watches. When they misbehave, sometimes he warns them that he’s going to lay the smack down if they continue, other times he just whacks them without any forewarning. Presumably, he could practice some form of mind control and force them to act according to his will, but he has chosen to allow humans free will. God is more like a parent, in the OT, than a wizard. He gives his children free reign, within boundaries, and punishes them when they cross over those boundaries. Whereas if he was a wizard, he’d just hypnotize them and force them to act according to his will. Overall, I think you’ll do a better job of questioning Christianity by asking what God’s goal was with the whole willy-whacking thing, than by going the “Can Superman tear off his own head?” direction. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/366 "2014-09-12T02:50:11Z")
I’ve been patient with this thread. But that’s at an end. The next pointless bickering I see will lead to its closing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/367 "2014-09-12T03:42:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Yes to both. God punishes for misbehavior, in the OT. > No, it means that God _could_ control everything. > > The Bible is pretty consistent in the OT. God tells people what he wants and then sits back and watches. When they misbehave, sometimes he warns them that he’s going to lay the smack down if they continue, other times he just whacks them without any forewarning. Presumably, he could practice some form of mind control and force them to act according to his will, but he has chosen to allow humans free will. > > God is more like a parent, in the OT, than a wizard. He gives his children free reign, within boundaries, and punishes them when they cross over those boundaries. Whereas if he was a wizard, he’d just hypnotize them and force them to act according to his will. > > Overall, I think you’ll do a better job of questioning Christianity by asking what God’s goal was with the whole willy-whacking thing, than by going the “Can Superman tear off his own head?” direction. In the early Bible God directly caused the disasters he threatened - Sodom and the Flood for two. In the later Bible he is more like a parent who says you’ll get burned if you touch that pan. Which is way different from burning the child. That’s an example of a successful prophecy. The coming of the Messiah - not so much. (At least if you are Jewish, and as I think we’ve gone over already, Jesus doesn’t fill the bill either unless you reinterpret the prophecy to force it to apply.) Remember we’re talking about God seeing the future. If he predicts it, and really sees it happening, then he is powerless to change it. Or if he works in more subtle ways he must control everyone involved to make the prophecy happen. Or he could be lying. Remember Jonah? He was pissed off because God told him to predict something and then didn’t follow through. Which means God lied to Jonah about it happening - or if not, he was wrong about what he was going to do. Lying is perfectly compatible with God. As for Superman, that just sets the limit of omnipotence. I’ve already agreed that it does not included logically impossible things. My paradox is a lot more fundamental than that. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/368 "2014-09-12T03:50:42Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We can change what we want to do. If God cannot, we are more powerful than he is in a sense, which means he is not god. You’re mixing two different fictional concepts here. I only want to know why you think omnipotence + omniscience are logically impossible. If you assume an omniscience that knows everything that is going to happen, you’re positing a deterministic world. In a deterministic world, an omnipotent and omniscient being can change what he wants to do also. He just knows ahead of time that the change will happen. The only thing that he cannot change is doing something other than what he knows he will do. But since, under your rules, omnipotence does not extend to logical impossibilities, he is still omnipotent and omniscient both. That combination is not a logical impossibility. So, an omnipotent being could very well give himself omniscience. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/369 "2014-09-12T04:03:35Z")
What, if anything, becomes demonstrably impossible if we assume there is no God? Such would be support for a proof by contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/370 "2014-09-12T06:39:43Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Except, it is not entirely clear what this “sacrifice” was. {…} It’s not entirely clear it really was a “sacrifice”. Jesus was crucified and died for my/all sin(s), a finite punishment, God says the punishment for sin is eternity in hell, infinite punishment. Jesus doesn’t pay retail, he pays wholesale and buys in bulk. If God can cut himself a deal why can’t he give me one? If you accept my sacrifice of myself to myself instead of eternal torture you’ll get to have eternal life . . . worshiping me! That isn’t a sacrifice . . . it’s an attempt at extortion. Jesus is not Prometheus. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/371 "2014-09-12T10:25:47Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’ve been patient with this thread. But that’s at an end. The next pointless bickering I see will lead to its closing. In a thread about religion vs atheism? What else is there? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/372 "2014-09-12T11:19:39Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > This does assume that a _actual_ All Knowing Being and a _hypothetical_ All Knowing Being have the same level of “all knowingness”. > > Also, maybe All Knowing Beings know how to reach their created imperfect beings but simply aren’t able to do it. > > CMC fnord! But God is said to be able to do all things. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/373 "2014-09-12T11:30:50Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > But God is said to be able to do all things. Except deal with iron chariots, for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/374 "2014-09-12T15:14:37Z")
I once heard that there was a saying “wooden ships and iron men.” I told that to someone a few years back and he said “Now it’s the other way around.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/375 "2014-09-12T20:02:31Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I once heard that there was a saying “wooden ships and iron men.” I told that to someone a few years back and he said “Now it’s the other way around.” That joke goes back at least as far as the Battle of Tsushima. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/376 "2014-09-12T22:27:21Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > You’re mixing two different fictional concepts here. I only want to know why you think omnipotence + omniscience are logically impossible. If you assume an omniscience that knows everything that is going to happen, you’re positing a deterministic world. In a deterministic world, an omnipotent and omniscient being can change what he wants to do also. He just knows ahead of time that the change will happen. The only thing that he cannot change is doing something other than what he knows he will do. But since, under your rules, omnipotence does not extend to logical impossibilities, he is still omnipotent and omniscient both. That combination is not a logical impossibility. So, an omnipotent being could very well give himself omniscience. First, I agree that an omniscient deity who cannot foresee the future can be omnipotent, But that is a feeble version of omniscience. Since God supposedly is maximally omniscient and maximally omnipotent, a god whose omniscience includes the future is more omniscient than one who omniscience cannot - thus that being is not God. There is no logical contradiction in omniscience - including the future - by itself. Or at least none I can think of. Now, a world with such a god is determined, but not deterministic. You can have truly random events - but God knows how they come out. If you can send a picture back in time five minutes, rolled a die, and sent the outcome to yourself before you rolled it, the roll is just as random as before. The God who set things in motion to create and then never interfered does imply a deterministic universe, but I don’t think we’re talking about that kind of God. Now, I don’t know what changing your mind means when you know what you will decide. Beside that, you note that he only can’t change his mind about things he will do. But that implies he knows the things he won’t do also - which, since God can do everything possible, includes all other possible actions. If he lets the sparrow fall it is because he decided to not catch the sparrow. So, the union of things he decides to do and the things he decides not to do is all things - and so God is constrained to do exactly what he foresees - and has no free will. Add to that the fact that an eternal God knows all this at t = - infinity, and we’ve got a universe set in concrete. It is a poor omnipotence that is constrained from doing anything not foreseen at the beginning of time. Computers have more free will than that. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/377 "2014-09-12T22:36:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That joke goes back at least as far as the Battle of Tsushima. When was that? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/378 "2014-09-12T23:50:51Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > When was that? May 27–28, 1905. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/379 "2014-09-13T00:22:11Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > When was that? One of the earliest battles between modern battleships…and a very badly botched battle, as the Russian fleet walked right into killing fire and was annihilated. Thus the joke: “Iron ships…and wooden men.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938/380 "2014-09-13T00:35:43Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > But God is said to be able to do all things. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Except deal with iron chariots, for some reason. He’s probably an elf. They don’t like iron, and it would explain the attitude problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-this-site-overwhelmingly-atheist/696938.md?page=20)