# Why is ticket scalping a viable business? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2016, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562 "2016-01-29T08:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/41 "2016-01-31T12:53:42Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > They could just require people to go to ticket venues in person and but physical tickets and then only allow no more than 4 tickets per person. > > It just seems that alot of this is due to being able to order online. Nope, it happened way back in the days when you literally stood on line at Ticketron to buy tickets. Just like people are paid to buy tickets online now, they were paid to stand on line to buy tickets then. It perhaps wasn’t as big or as organized a business before the resellers were able to set up websites , but that goes for a lot of things. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/42 "2016-01-31T12:54:33Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > I don’t see how the scheme that the OP describes - with the orimary ticket vendors pricing tickets at the market rate to begin with - can be called price discrimination. To me, price discrimination is the practice of charging different customers of the same product different prices, depending on the willingness of that individual customer to pay. That is not what the OP proposes; rather, the proposal is to uniformly price tickets at (or close to) the price which basic economics would predict to be the market outcome to begin with, across all purchasers. Right, exactly. I mean, can you imagine airlines or hotels putting up with this situation? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/43 "2016-01-31T16:24:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There are problems with such a system. What if you are legitimately buying tickets for somebody else? My mother, who lives in New York, buys concert tickets as gifts for her granddaughter, who lives in Texas. My mother has no problem buying the ticket online with a credit card but she’s not going to show up at the venue to pick them up. Sure. There’s a no perfect system for doing this. Someone is also going to be left out or inconvenienced by whatever system they use. In this case, it’s bad luck for grandma and granddaughter, i guess. If a system like this manages to prevent the majority of the third-party profiteering, and ensures that the people who want to see the music are the same people who actually get to buy the tickets, i’d be willing to bet that the number of people who benefit from the system is probably larger than the number of people who are inconvenienced by it. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/44 "2016-01-31T17:25:13Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If a system like this manages to prevent the majority of the third-party profiteering, and ensures that the people who want to see the music are the same people who actually get to buy the tickets, I’d be willing to bet that the number of people who benefit from the system is probably larger than the number of people who are inconvenienced by it. I’m not. Because not only will Grandma be inconvenienced, but so will anyone who wants to buy tickets as a gift. Or who needs to buy the tickets for their 13 year old (who doesn’t have a debit or credit card) but doesn’t actually want to attend the event . And anyone who doesn’t want to wait outside the venue for God knows how long for the other three attendees to show up , or who has to waste four tickets if the ticket-buyer suddenly can’t attend ( because I’m sure they won’t start offering refunds). ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/45 "2016-01-31T20:11:53Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I’m not. Because not only will Grandma be inconvenienced, but so will anyone who wants to buy tickets as a gift. Or who needs to buy the tickets for their 13 year old (who doesn’t have a debit or credit card) but doesn’t actually want to attend the event . And anyone who doesn’t want to wait outside the venue for God knows how long for the other three attendees to show up , or who has to waste four tickets if the ticket-buyer suddenly can’t attend ( because I’m sure they won’t start offering refunds). These are all problems that can be dealt with in a manner that prevents scalping. Want to give tickets away as a gift? No problem, when you order to give that person’s name, rather than your own, as the name to which the ticket will be issued. Changed your mind or some problem comes up that prevents your from attending the event? No problem, you return the ticket to the vendor, who will give you a refund and sells it again; or you sell it on a trading platform operated by the tciekt vendor to ensure that a price that does not exceed what you paid for it can be paid. I’ve seen or heard of all of these things implemented. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/46 "2016-02-01T03:27:31Z")
I’m just having trouble understanding why the people who have this scarce good should feel compelled to sell it for far below what the market would bear, and what the demand suggests, and then further implement elaborate systems to prevent market forces from coming into play to bring it to its true price. ---
**Author:** ![Caldazar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Caldazar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caldazar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/47 "2016-02-01T15:40:56Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m just having trouble understanding why the people who have this scarce good should feel compelled to sell it for far below what the market would bear, and what the demand suggests, and then further implement elaborate systems to prevent market forces from coming into play to bring it to its true price. As has been mentioned previously, this is done primarily for public-relations reasons. The performers do not want to give the appearance of being too greedy, and risk alienating fans. Your pricing model (start with a vaguely reasonable but somewhat high price, and slowly reduce the price until the venue sells out) might work, although you might have to think a bit about how to avoid letting people game the system somehow. But the main issue is that fans may resent you for it. Trent Reznor of the band Nine Inch Nails wrote a [post on the NIN forum](http://forum.nin.com/bb/read.php?59,548515) regarding his perspective on ticket reselling, which I found informative. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/48 "2016-02-01T15:50:28Z")
That’s some expensive PR. But I agreed with about 80-90 percent of what Reznor said there (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > **The ticketing marketplace for rock concerts shows a real lack of sophistication** , meaning this: **the true market value of some tickets for some concerts is much higher than what the act wants to be perceived as charging.** For example, there are some people who would be willing to pay $1,000 and up to be in the best seats for various shows, but MOST acts in the rock / pop world don’t want to come off as greedy pricks asking that much, even though **the market says its value is that high.** > > [snip] > > We are leaving money on the table here but it’s not always about money. > Being completely honest, it IS something I’ve had to consider. **If people are willing to pay a lot of money to sit up front AND ARE GOING TO ANYWAY thanks to the rigged system, why let that money go into the hands of the scalpers? I’m the one busting my ass up there every night.** The conclusion really came down to it not feeling like the right thing to do - simple as that. > > My guess as to what will eventually happen if / when Live Nation and TicketMaster merges is that **they’ll move to an auction or market-based pricing scheme** - which will simply mean it will cost a lot more to get a good seat for a hot show. They will simply BECOME the scalper, eliminating them from the mix. This also seems to indicate that at least in his experience, it’s not that every seat disappears instantly into the hands of scalpers (as seemed to be described by NPR), just the best seats. As I noted upthread, it shouldn’t be a problem to charge market prices for 20% of the best seats, if there are plenty of cheaper ones available for fans with more modest budgets to get in. As for PR, what if bands held free contests on their websites for hardcore fans (those known to participate in forums etc.) to provide them front-row-center tickets and backstage passes? With the increased revenue from the other good seats they are selling at market prices, they could easily afford to give away a few seats and their net PR would be positive, I would think. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/49 "2016-02-01T17:16:29Z")
When Garth Brooks tours now, if a city or venue quickly sells out, he will open up a second show for later that same night or the following night. If that one sells out quickly, he will do a 3rd show the following night. Recently in Wichita, KS he did 5 performances over one weekend. There is no incentive for resellers to quickly buy up tickets and raise the prices as more seats at face value are coming. ---
**Author:** ![Caldazar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Caldazar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caldazar)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/50 "2016-02-01T17:41:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > As I noted upthread, it shouldn’t be a problem to charge market prices for 20% of the best seats, if there are plenty of cheaper ones available for fans with more modest budgets to get in. > > As for PR, what if bands held free contests on their websites for hardcore fans (those known to participate in forums etc.) to provide them front-row-center tickets and backstage passes? With the increased revenue from the other good seats they are selling at market prices, they could easily afford to give away a few seats and their net PR would be positive, I would think. Who knows. The only way to know for sure is to try to raise face-value prices, even if only on a percentage of the total seats, and see how fans react. Fans can be very sensitive even to perceived price increases (nevermind that you may not be able to reasonably buy the ticket at face-value to begin with). The artists themselves seem unwilling to take the chance on possible backlash, though. Understandable, when your livelihood depends on staying in your fans’ good graces. But ticket face-value underpricing relative to market value does appear to be a somewhat intentional decision. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/51 "2016-02-01T17:46:37Z")
It does, but I wonder how stable it is over the long run. If Trent Reznor is frustrated that the scalpers are getting so much money when is the one “busting his ass” onstage, how many other performers must feel this way? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/52 "2016-02-01T17:55:14Z")
Reznor’s prediction is probably 99% likely to happen and I’m mildly surprised it hasn’t already, to be honest. Virtually every other system for preventing scalping can be circumvented. Last year my fiancee, who is a huge Supertramp fan (despite being born after almost all their albums were released) and I drove all the way to Casino Rama, a solid two hours, to be the first to purchase tickets to see Roger Hodgson. The tickets were very reasonably priced and the venue has two ways of preventing scalping; 1. Many of the best seats are earned not by buying them but by spending a lot of time in the casino, and 2. The tickets could only be bought in person and then only eight per customer. It was painfully obvious neither system worked. Tickets were on Stubhub for five to ten times face value before they even opened the box office - the product of gambling addicts who earned the tickets but didn’t like Supertramp so they passed the tickets on to scalpers. Then people were showing up with a bunch of buddies, some a half dozen or more, and each buying sheets of tickets for every show that went on sale that week. We were the 80th and 81st person in line and by the time we got to the ticket window the thousand best seats were gone. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2016, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/53 "2016-02-01T19:03:22Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > When Garth Brooks tours now, if a city or venue quickly sells out, he will open up a second show for later that same night or the following night. If that one sells out quickly, he will do a 3rd show the following night. Recently in Wichita, KS he did 5 performances over one weekend. There is no incentive for resellers to quickly buy up tickets and raise the prices as more seats at face value are coming. That’s a great reaction. Garth just sells more tickets overall and makes more money, and fans can see him without having to pay a scalper. Only the scalper loses by not being able to sell steep prices to desperate fans. As long as Garth has the energy to do all those performances back-to-back. I’m not sure if the venue loses because the shows stop being sold-out though. That could be the flaw in the plan. ---
**Author:** ![glowacks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/glowacks/32/5548_2.png) [@glowacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glowacks)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/54 "2016-02-06T06:29:04Z")
It also makes scheduling a hassle, and if you plan to have 3 nights in one area due to potential demand but only get demand for 1 show, you’re out 2 nights of profit. I suppose the kinds of people who put on shows at the level of Garth Brooks have a feel for demand to plan things appropriately, but there’s always that risk. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/55 "2016-02-06T13:55:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There are problems with such a system. What if you are legitimately buying tickets for somebody else? Pretty easy to deal with this: At the time you buy the ticket, you provide the name of the person who will use it. That person must present the ticket and a photo ID. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/56 "2016-04-24T06:12:27Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I suppose the ideal scenario for bands and venues is to engage in some kind of secret collusion with scalpers, or even use shell corporations to own both parts of the market. In [this episode of the Planet Money podcast](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/06/25/195641030/episode-468-kid-rock-vs-the-scalpers) (from 2013, but new to me as it was “rerun” this week in their feed), Kid Rock confirms that artists do indeed get involved in corrupt bargains with scalpers, secretly selling them front row seats for thousands of dollars, or thousands more for adding a “meet and greet”. They split the profits while keeping the appearance of slime off the performer. But as gross as that was, what bothered me most about listening to this was hearing from a Taylor Swift fan who gladly (excitedly!) paid scalpers $500 for two tickets to a TS concert. When interviewed, though, she said that if Swift had actually sold the tickets for $250 originally, she would have refused to buy them because that would have seemed really greedy and slimy on Swift’s part. So she’d rather most of that $500 go to some shady scalpers who didn’t do anything to earn the money, instead of the actual performer?!? :smack: This kind of irrationality galls me so deeply, I feel like I need a paper bag to breathe in. All the more so because it wasn’t some unconscious bias that she felt chagrined about when it was pointed out. This woman was 100% aware of what she was saying and had zero problem with it. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/57 "2016-04-24T06:59:35Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > If that law is still around, then the Dutch auction would be illegal. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I had never heard of that term, and figured I just made up the concept since I also never heard of an auction being conducted that way. It does seem like a good system, so I wonder why it’s not more popular. Because people are intolerant of other people’s cultures. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/58 "2016-04-24T22:13:56Z")
Then why haven’t I been able to unload my Paul McCartney tickets for more than face price 6 weeks after buying them the day they went on sale? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/59 "2016-06-14T08:45:07Z")
The producers of the Broadway smash (and cultural phenomenon) \*Hamilton \*have responded to the huge markups scalpers are selling tix for by [massively hiking the face value](http://www.playbill.com/article/new-block-of-hamilton-tickets-go-on-sale-to-public-at-11-10-pm) of their premium seats, to a Broadway record of $849. But they are also doubling the number of front-row seats they sell by lottery daily for $10 each. Seems like a good compromise. ---
**Author:** ![Nansbread1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Nansbread1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nansbread1)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2016, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562/60 "2016-06-14T10:11:41Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I’ve heard the following “anti-scalper” scheme suggested: > > When you order and pay for a ticket, you must supply ID; admission will be granted only to the person who presents the matching ID. If you can’t attend (e.g. you got sick) you can relinquish the ticket and receive a refund if it re-sells. > > I’ve heard of this being used for student tickets with college football: student who wishes to attend the game goes online and books a seat (paying a seriously reduced rate compared to general admission). Admission requires swiping your student ID at the stadium turnstile. > > I’m not sure how well this would work elsewhere. One of the biggest music concerts in the world, the Glastonbury festival, uses this technique. Only registered fans, who have purchased tickets, can attend the concert venue, upon production of registration doc plus verifiable proof like drivers license or passport. There is no market for glastonbury tickets on websites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ticket-scalping-a-viable-business/744562.md?page=4)