# Why is Vermont Substantially More Liberal than New Hampshire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 19, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917 "2014-08-19T17:43:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/21 "2014-08-21T20:07:29Z")
I lived in NH for 15 years, and trust me, the taxes on my modest home were quite high compared to a comparable town in MA. But since I wasn’t paying income tax it was well worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/22 "2014-08-22T12:36:15Z")
The biggest thing with the taxes in NH vs MA is that it varies a lot from town to town. There are towns that are next door to each other where the taxes are nearly double in NH. I think the main reason for this is businesses as a tax base in the town. If you’ve got a small town with no businesses and just residential homes then there’s no one to help with the tax burden. While a town nearby might have a few industrial parks or a vibrant downtown area or something which can take a huge bite out of it. Plus obviously, spending matters a lot and the choices that the towns make. In MA, at least in my experience, it’s a much more level playing field since the property tax is only a small portion of the overall percentage. A “bedroom community” that commutes into Boston doesn’t need to have businesses, since all those salaries are being taxed which generates revenue. In NH, local politics matters a lot for this reason. I looked at a town the other day that had free summer camp for all the kids, great schools, lavish services for things like trash pick up and parks. But you paid for it. The taxes were 50% higher than the surrounding towns. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/23 "2014-08-22T13:40:48Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Burlington, the largest city, is quite liberal but not all of the countryside. The majority of the population in every single county in Vermont voted for a self-described socialist for the US senate in 2012. The only difference was that in Chittenden county (Burlington) he got north of 70% while in the less populous counties he had to settle for 60%+. So while the rural counties might be conservative relative to Burlington, its a pretty big stretch to say they’re conservative ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2014, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/24 "2014-08-22T23:20:33Z")
Vermont is upside down. Explains it completely. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/25 "2014-08-23T00:27:58Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Tales of the super high property taxes in NH are mostly not true. No, it’s your statement that’s untrue. [NH’s property taxes are the second highest in the US.](http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state) MA, in contrast, comes in #20. OP, NH has more in common with Maine than VT, or at least the southern portion of Maine. Despite NH having only a wee tiny coast, we have a lot of the same ocean-related industry as Maine, which of course VT does not. And, of course, decades and decades of fighting over those very industries gives us a common history we lack with VT. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/26 "2014-08-23T03:49:10Z")
It’s worth pointing out that N.H. is not _that_ conservative. More so than VT, sure, but it’s still more like Florida than Utah. You’re almost as likely to meet a militant paranoid lefty as a militant paranoid conservative. Heck, Dartmouth College (the real-life Animal House) is in N.H. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/27 "2014-08-28T13:28:10Z")
As someone that has never been to either, I tend to lump them together and I have no idea which one is which. However, a simple glance at a map should be enough to tell they are diametrically opposed to each another. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/28 "2014-08-28T14:16:11Z")
Four words: Don’t Tread On Me. Actually, as **Elvis** noted, NH is becoming much more liberal over time. When I was in school in Boston (mid 70s), NH was very, very conservative. It’s pretty much a “purple” state now (as much as I hate that designation). Much of southern NH (where most people live) is basically an extension of the Boston metro area. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/29 "2014-08-28T15:01:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Four words: Don’t Tread On Me. Actually: Live Free or Die ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/30 "2014-08-28T15:08:17Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Unemployment payouts in MA is the most generous in the country at $674 a week. Lot’s of people work just long enough to “fill up the tank” to max out unemployment and then take a layoff to collect for six months. [[Morbo] That is not how jobs work [/Morbo]](http://youtu.be/ZQg8JKo_3ZQ) - You can’t “take a layoff” - your boss decides who gets laid off and when, not you. - If you mean “quit” instead of “take a layoff” - then [you don’t get unemployment benefits if you quit](http://www.mass.gov/lwd/unemployment-insur/basic-ui-information/understanding-eligibility-requirements.html). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/31 "2014-08-28T15:17:15Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Actually: Live Free or Die :smack: I’ve been away too long… how could I mix those up!! ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/32 "2014-08-28T15:34:24Z")
Another aspect to compare the differences between VT and NH is with regards to their respective laws regarding concealed carry of a handgun. VT: > [@](#): > > No permit necessary to carry concealed. The state of Vermont does not issue permits nor require a permit for law-abiding citizens to carry concealed in the state of Vermont. NH: > [@](#): > > It is unlawful to carry a loaded handgun in any vehicle or concealed about one’s person without a license. VT: [http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/vermont.aspx](http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/vermont.aspx) NH: [http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-hampshire.aspx](http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/new-hampshire.aspx) Basic summary: in Vermont, if you can legally own a handgun then if you’re over 21 you can carry concealed without any permit of any kind. In New Hampshire you have to apply and pay for, and receive, a permit before you can carry concealed - much more strict. ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/33 "2014-08-28T20:49:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Four words: Don’t Tread On Me. > > Actually, as **Elvis** noted, NH is becoming much more liberal over time. When I was in school in Boston (mid 70s), NH was very, very conservative. It’s pretty much a “purple” state now (as much as I hate that designation). Much of southern NH (where most people live) is basically an extension of the Boston metro area. I distinctly remember learning (many years ago) that the ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ motto was associated with Vermont, back in the day (‘the day’ being about the time VT became a state, mind you). I can’t find any evidence for this with a quick Google search, but I’m confident someone said it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/34 "2014-08-29T01:02:56Z")
“Don’t tread on me” predated Vermont statehood in 1791. > **[Culpeper Minutemen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpeper_Minutemen)** > > Confederate States Army > Virginia National Guard > U.S. Army > ? American Civil War > ? Spanish–American War > ? World War I > **[Gadsden flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag)** > > The Gadsden flag is a historical American flag with a yellow field depicting a timber rattlesnake coiled and ready to strike. Beneath the rattlesnake are the words: "DONT TREAD ON ME".\[a\] Some modern versions of the flag include an apostrophe. > The flag is named for Christopher Gadsden, South Carolina delegate to the Continental Congress and brigadier general in the Continental Army. Gadsden designed the flag in 1775 during the American Revolution. He gifted it to Commodore Esek Hopkins, and t... > **[First Navy Jack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Navy_Jack)** > > The First Navy Jack was the naval jack of the United States from 1975 to 1976 and again from 2002 to 2019. It was authorized by the U.S. Navy and was flown from the jackstaff of commissioned vessels of the U.S. Navy while moored pierside or at anchor. Since then, it is used only as a naval jack by the oldest active warship in the U.S. Navy.\[a\] The design is traditionally regarded as that of the first U.S. naval jack, flown soon after independence, but this is not supported by the historical recor... My wife’s from Vermont and I’ve read a lot of its history; I know of no particular connection that the phrase has to the state. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/35 "2014-08-29T15:03:15Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > [[Morbo] That is not how jobs work [/Morbo]](http://youtu.be/ZQg8JKo_3ZQ) > > - You can’t “take a layoff” - your boss decides who gets laid off and when, not you. > > - If you mean “quit” instead of “take a layoff” - then [you don’t get unemployment benefits if you quit](http://www.mass.gov/lwd/unemployment-insur/basic-ui-information/understanding-eligibility-requirements.html). In the real world that’s not how it works. I’ve got friends and family that work in unions in MA. The management walks around and asks who wants to get a layoff. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/36 "2014-08-29T15:04:30Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Actually: Live Free or Die It’s the only state slogan that should have “motherfucker” after it. It doesn’t work with any of the others. “The Constitution State, Motherfucker!” “The Garden State, Motherfucker!” ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/37 "2014-08-29T15:06:54Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > No, it’s your statement that’s untrue. [NH’s property taxes are the second highest in the US.](http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state) MA, in contrast, comes in #20. > > OP, NH has more in common with Maine than VT, or at least the southern portion of Maine. Despite NH having only a wee tiny coast, we have a lot of the same ocean-related industry as Maine, which of course VT does not. And, of course, decades and decades of fighting over those very industries gives us a common history we lack with VT. I’m sure your cite is correct. But my experience with towns on the border is that there are plenty of MA towns with higher rates than NH towns a few miles away. I bet looking at the state as a whole there is more of a discrepancy. There’s a lot of small towns up north that have high taxes as a % of value. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/38 "2014-08-29T16:44:52Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > In the real world that’s not how it works. I’ve got friends and family that work in unions in MA. The management walks around and asks who wants to get a layoff. I’m sure there are plenty of people here who supervise/hire employees - let’s see if they believe that’s how the world works. I’d rather have firsthand evidence than “my brother told me this happens.” [I put a poll up in IMHO](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=732474). ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/39 "2014-08-29T23:05:25Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > I’m sure there are plenty of people here who supervise/hire employees - let’s see if they believe that’s how the world works. I’d rather have firsthand evidence than “my brother told me this happens.” > > [I put a poll up in IMHO](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=732474). In the tech industry it’s common to have early retirement packages and employees can decide if they want to take it or not. It’s pretty much the first order of business when a head count reduction is needed. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917/40 "2014-08-29T23:08:00Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s the only state slogan that should have “motherfucker” after it. > > It doesn’t work with any of the others. > > “The Constitution State, Motherfucker!” > > “The Garden State, Motherfucker!” NH is “The Granite State”, those others aren’t the state slogans, they’re nicknames. Looking at [the list of state slogans](http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_slogans), a few of them would sound cool with “Motherfucker” after them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-vermont-substantially-more-liberal-than-new-hampshire/695917.md?page=3)