# Why is virgin-shaming still acceptable in society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270 "2015-05-04T20:20:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/41 "2015-05-05T16:22:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Shaming someone without a social life I’ll give you. That kind of thing is more obvious. But that set of people is not the same as the set of virgins. Especially not for men, given the existence of prostitutes. . Oh yeah. Because being suspected of having to use a prostitute is so much better than being suspected of being a virgin. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/42 "2015-05-05T16:34:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > We HAVEN’T stopped shaming those behaviors. I think one need only compare the 3 behaviors to see the premise of the question is baseless. Slut shaming seems to have become the most unacceptable of the 3, but it’s still widely acceptable. Fat shaming has a tiny vocal minority of fat people who loudly condemn it, but everyone else is still fine with it. I’ve never even knowingly met an adult virgin, let alone seen one shamed. I don’t think most people are even thinking about adult virgins enough to shame them, let alone think about whether or not it’s acceptable. If anyone did stop and think about it, I think most wouldn’t consider it any more or less acceptable than shaming fat people or sluts. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/43 "2015-05-05T16:41:27Z")
Being an adult virgin is so shameful you haven’t knowingly met any because we’re too ashamed to admit it it’s the most insidious version too people just make throwaway comments about it without thinking of the consequences “oh that guy likes Star Trek? he’s probably a virgin lol” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/44 "2015-05-05T17:28:00Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > I’ve never even knowingly met an adult virgin, let alone seen one shamed. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And the fact is that “virgin” is often used as an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/45 "2015-05-05T17:31:04Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Virginity, in a culture of loose sexual mores, where pretty much anyone who wants to can lose their virginity, is indicative of some sort of hidden flaw. Perhaps it’s unfashionable religious attitudes towards sex, some sort of personal failure like hygiene, or problems “down there”. But society constantly tells young adults that it’s perfectly okay to have sex, and so if someone hasn’t had sex, there must be something ‘wrong’. Sorry, but I’m having a hard time reading the nuance here: Is this supporting virgin-criticism or opposing it? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/46 "2015-05-05T18:33:18Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Fat-shaming and slut-shaming hasn’t stopped _entirely_, but the tide has definitely turned against it. Bless your heart. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/47 "2015-05-05T20:01:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Shaming someone without a social life I’ll give you. That kind of thing is more obvious. But that set of people is not the same as the set of virgins. Especially not for men, given the existence of prostitutes. I’ll just point out that I said nothing about a virgin “not having a social life”. Not having a SO does NOT equate to not having a social life. Showing up to a party without someone on your arm only communicates that you don’t have a SO. It doesn’t mean you don’t have friends or that your social skills are weak. > [@](#): > > The college I went to did not have the most socially with it people in the world, and I include myself in this. People who inject themselves into discussions about which they are ignorant are going to get shamed, but the same would happen to me if I joined a thread about cars as an expert. I went to a school full of dorks and geeks. This is why I wouldn’t think to extrapolate the experiences I had in college to the wider world. Geeks and dorks are tolerant of ecccentrities that are not tolerated in the mainstream. > [@](#): > > Maybe. But those movies don’t show him as a loser. Can you think of any other heroic figure that also happens to be a virgin? I mean, even Jesus is a questionable example. He may not be portrayed as a lady’s man, but in most modern portrayals, he’s got Mary Magdelene practically hanging on his arm. Everyone knows he could “hit that” if he wanted to. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/48 "2015-05-05T20:02:45Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > … Has there ever been a virgin character in a movie who wasn’t portrayed as a loser, and desperate not to be? The virgin Connie Swale? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/49 "2015-05-05T20:17:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Can you think of any other heroic figure that also happens to be a virgin? Having just seen the new “Age of Ultron” Avengers movie, I’ll chime in with Steve Rogers, aka Captain America. Now, I think we can agree that Cap’s virginity is the result of his having (a) grown up as a very principled guy in an era of stricter sexual mores where sex outside of marriage was frowned upon, and (b) suffered a personal tragedy that meant he never got to marry the woman he loved. But AFAICT he hasn’t had or sought any sexual experience since re-emerging in the more freewheeling 21st century, and he nonetheless **definitely** qualifies as a heroic figure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/50 "2015-05-05T21:14:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Sorry, but I’m having a hard time reading the nuance here: Is this supporting virgin-criticism or opposing it? I was trying to make a more nuanced point than just ‘good-or-bad’. I guess I feel that virginity as a consequence of religious views is generally not negative, even though society seems to think so. Virginity as a consequence of an inability to have sex is generally indicative of some sort of failure, though. Kimstu: [I don’t think you can assume that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=719160) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/51 "2015-05-05T21:21:31Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > people just make throwaway comments about it without thinking of the consequences I’ve argued passionately for the OP’s side, so now I feel obligated to detach and see things from the other side. People are always making throwaway comments without thinking of how their words may hurt. Pretty much everything we say has the potential to trigger someone’s insecurities, because there are an infinite number of things to feel insecure about. People who are estranged from their parents feel sucky whenever they hear advertisements for Mothers’ or Fathers’ Day. People who are broke feel sucky whenever someone mentions their summer vacation at Martha’s Vineyard. Just the other day, a pregnant woman I work with opined that bearing children is the most important service women contribute to the world. Since I don’t see myself ever having a child, I felt like she was taking a swipe at me. I think it’s nice to hope that people would show more care about what they say and who they say it to. But it may not be realistic to expect people to not say things that unintentionally sting. Thick skin is an absolute requirement for this life. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/52 "2015-05-05T21:25:10Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Kimstu: [I don’t think you can assume that.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=719160) Lordabove, there was a whole **thread** on this subject?! Never knew. Well, now I’ve read it, and I’m on Team **Miller** : > [@](#): > > No question, Steve was a virgin when he went into the ice. Steve’s too smart to not be aware of the immense damage having a child out of wedlock could do to a woman’s life in the '40s, and too fundamentally decent to put a woman at that sort of risk just for a quick thrill. I don’t think he’d necessarily balk at having premarital sex with someone he fully intended to marry, but not some random USO girl or audience member. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/53 "2015-05-05T21:28:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’ll just point out that I said nothing about a virgin “not having a social life”. Not having a SO does NOT equate to not having a social life. Showing up to a party without someone on your arm only communicates that you don’t have a SO. It doesn’t mean you don’t have friends or that your social skills are weak. Sorry, I was being too subtle. I meant romantic social life, or even friends of the appropriate sex. Do you really think that seeing someone in a mixed group is going to inspire “is he a virgin?” thoughts? Where is this shaming supposed to happen, anyway? Among so-called friends? On-line? Look, we have lots of threads about sex around here. Am I supposed to wonder if people who don’t participate do so because they are virgins? > [@](#): > > I went to a school full of dorks and geeks. This is why I wouldn’t think to extrapolate the experiences I had in college to the wider world. Geeks and dorks are tolerant of ecccentrities that are not tolerated in the mainstream. I went to one of the top three geek schools in the world (my daughter went to another) but it wasn’t a case of tolerating eccentricity, it was a case of none of our business. We did talk about frustration, but no one was shaming anyone about that. Maybe if someone had been self-righteous - but I don’t think I would have called the reaction shaming. I’ve also been to several grad schools and worked in tech a long time, and don’t recall even one instance of virginity shaming. Maybe I don’t get where this happens. The other two types mentioned here I get fine. > [@](#): > > Can you think of any other heroic figure that also happens to be a virgin? > > I mean, even Jesus is a questionable example. He may not be portrayed as a lady’s man, but in most modern portrayals, he’s got Mary Magdelene practically hanging on his arm. Everyone knows he could “hit that” if he wanted to. Is someone who can get some but doesn’t worse than someone without the opportunity? Today’s fiction or yesterday’s fiction? Real or imaginary? Isaac Newton. Sherlock Holmes. (I know Nero Wolfe is supposed to be the child of him and Irene Adler, but I don’t buy it.) In today’s fiction sex is a part of a lot of story arcs unless there is good reason for it not to be, so not many. I’ll also agree that we live in a highly sexualized culture today, and not just online. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/54 "2015-05-05T21:32:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I went to one of the top three geek schools in the world (my daughter went to another)… MIT, Caltech, and Hogwarts? ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/55 "2015-05-05T21:51:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I went to one of the top three geek schools in the world (my daughter went to another) but it wasn’t a case of tolerating eccentricity, it was a case of none of our business. We did talk about frustration, but no one was shaming anyone about that. Maybe if someone had been self-righteous - but I don’t think I would have called the reaction shaming. > I’ve also been to several grad schools and worked in tech a long time, and don’t recall even one instance of virginity shaming. > Maybe I don’t get where this happens. The other two types mentioned here I get fine. Young men. Especially through high school and college. Your typical group of teenage boys is obsessed with who among them is and who isn’t and making sure you are seen to be on the right (i.e., sexually-active) side of the line, even if you have to lie about it (of course, lying badly and getting caught out is even worse). Read _Dude, Youre a Fag: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School_, by C. J. Pascoe, which includes the deathless quote “if you’re not having sex, you’re nobody”, said by a popular boy regarding the social-outcast boys. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/56 "2015-05-06T00:05:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Sorry, I was being too subtle. I meant romantic social life, or even friends of the appropriate sex. Do you really think that seeing someone in a mixed group is going to inspire “is he a virgin?” thoughts? Yes. If you’ve got a group of friends, and all those friends are paired up with SO’s except for one guy…and that guy never has a SO and never talks about having an SO, you bet SOMEONE in that group will wonder aloud or in private what’s going on. They will wonder if he’s 1) virgin and/or 2) in the closet. Of course, if that group has a mix of singletons and couples, the dynamic is different. A virgin in a group of singletons and couples can blend in without a problem. > [@](#): > > Where is this shaming supposed to happen, anyway? Among so-called friends? Yes, sometimes it does. Sometimes friends try to be funny and playful, not knowing they’ve stepped on a sensitive spot. Have you never had a friend poke fun at something you’re insecure about? Of course, they don’t think they’re “shaming”. That doesn’t mean a joke or a throwaway remark can’t result in shame. Here’s a example from my own life. My twin is getting married. Our older sis and I are her bridesmaids. A couple of months ago, we’re at a restaurant and we’re trying to assure her it’s alright to allow our dad to shell out $1K for her wedding dress. I tell her she’s done so much for our parents through the years that it’s the least they could do. My older sister then says, “And this wedding is special because you will be the last of us to get married.” I tried not to feel bad about this, but it was hard to just sit there and smile. I don’t think I’ll get married, and I’m not at all broken up about this. But I’m not anti-marriage, nor anti-anything really. I’ve always left my future open in that regards, because I do realize that things can change. So it hurt that a close family member–one who values marriage and relationships and family-making–had rendered me invisible. I know that wasn’t her intention and she’d be sad to know how her words stung. > [@](#): > > On-line? Look, we have lots of threads about sex around here. Am I supposed to wonder if people who don’t participate do so because they are virgins? If you think that’s tantamount to shame, then I don’t think you’re understanding the situation. My most recent on-line “shaming” experience: I was on a message board (not this one) where someone was advising young people not to be in any great rush to find a SO. I posted my agreement with this by sharing my positive experiences as a singleton and independent woman. I also confessed to my lack of romantic interest and experience. Someone posted that I must be fat. When I said “nuh-uh”, he told me to post pictures. I ignored him. I’m guessing that just confirmed to him that I was fat. Another person told me that while it was nice that I was so content in my single-hood, that it was a shame that I was limiting myself to “contentment” rather than true happiness. I must be emotionally stunted. I must be in denial. Hopefully one day I will mature. Most responses were positive. But there were attempts to shame me. > [@](#): > > I went to one of the top three geek schools in the world (my daughter went to another) but it wasn’t a case of tolerating eccentricity, it was a case of none of our business. We did talk about frustration, but no one was shaming anyone about that. Maybe if someone had been self-righteous - but I don’t think I would have called the reaction shaming. > I’ve also been to several grad schools and worked in tech a long time, and don’t recall even one instance of virginity shaming. It seems you’re not grokking my point. You went to schools with geeks and nerds. I would expect there to be a higher percentage of virgins among geeks and nerds than the general population. So OF COURSE there wouldn’t be virginal shaming in your educational background. If you had gone to a party school and your friends had NOT been geeks and nerds, this wouldn’t be the case. I wasn’t shamed for being asexual when I was in grad school. But when I started working with the “fellas” out in the field after I graduated, I was the target of all kinds of jokes. Because those fellas were not geeks and nerds like my graduate school colleagues. > [@](#): > > Maybe I don’t get where this happens. The other two types mentioned here I get fine. Are you doubting that it happens? Just because you’re not in the right position to see it doesn’t mean the rest of us who have first-hand experience with it are making it all up. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/57 "2015-05-06T00:18:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Of course, they don’t think they’re “shaming”. That doesn’t mean a joke or a throwaway remark can’t result in shame. […] > > Most responses were positive. But there were attempts to shame me. For one thing, I think that many non-celibate people are (consciously or unconsciously) very frightened of the prospect of celibacy. They know they like sex, they have a relationship or relationships in which sexual activity is an important part, and on some level they simply don’t believe they could be anything but miserable if sex wasn’t part of their lives. So that’s a powerful incentive for them to try to “other” the virgins and other non-sexually-active people they encounter. _“This person is somehow fundamentally **different** from me, and that’s why they don’t have sex: they’re a loser/awkward/fat/ugly/repressed/not cut out for marriage or relationships. **I’m not like that, so that could never happen to me**.”_ ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/58 "2015-05-06T00:22:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > My OP specifically mentions slut-shaming and virgin shaming. Apparently I am out of touch as my understanding of slut-shaming referred to multiple sexual partners. These conservative religious denominations object to anyone having sex outside of marriage. But these same type of people who are engaged in virgin-shaming are also going to engage in non-drinker shaming. They think everyone should go out and get plastered. OP, are you going to start a thread about this? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/59 "2015-05-06T00:32:51Z")
Here’s some examples of shaming in this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=725016). But to be fair, it only came from a couple of posters. One of whom has since been banned. (I wonder when that happened?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270/60 "2015-05-06T00:53:01Z")
[Relevant documentary material.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aEa4MnycOw) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-virgin-shaming-still-acceptable-in-society/719270.md?page=4)