# Why is Wales not represented on the Union Jack? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730 "2007-08-07T11:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Captain\_Socks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a8b319/32.png) [@Captain\_Socks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Socks)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/1 "2007-08-07T11:54:56Z")
Other than the fact that a dragon would look rather silly on the current flag? England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are on the flag, why not Wales? Wales is just as much a part of the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/2 "2007-08-07T11:59:55Z")
My assumption would be that Wales was considered a part of England at the point the flag was made. Edit: [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_jack) backs me up, to the extent you can trust it. > [@](#): > > Wales had no explicit recognition in the Union Flag because Wales, having been annexed by Edward I of England in 1282 and following the Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542, was legally part of the Kingdom of England and was therefore represented by the flag of England. (The present-day Flag of Wales and St David’s Cross emerged, or re-emerged, in the 20th century: the former based on the historical emblem of Wales, the Red Dragon, and the latter based on the arms of the Diocese of Saint David’s.) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/3 "2007-08-07T12:02:50Z")
The ‘union’ represented by the first version of the flag was that of the crowns of England and Scotland. Wales had long been part of the Kingdom of England, and therefore there was no legal or perceived need to represent it separately. Edit: Dammit, too slow ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/4 "2007-08-07T12:21:47Z")
The way I heard it from my Cambriophile\* friends is that the idea of a separate Welsh nation arose mostly with the movement to revive the language in the 1960s and '70s. \*lovers of Wales or things Welsh ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/5 "2007-08-07T13:24:20Z")
And to this day, England and Wales remain more closely integrated than England and Scotland (I’m not sure about the status of Northern Ireland) - Scotland has a distinct legal system; a distinct education system; top-level Welsh sports teams tend to play in the same leagues as English teams, whereas Scotland has its own leagues; generally, in many contexts England and Wales are lumped together in a way that England and Scotland are not. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/6 "2007-08-07T13:37:29Z")
I asked a [similar question](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=404589), as to why British monarchs called themselves King of England, Scotland and Ireland, but didn’t include Wales. And to be completely accurate, the flag is used to represent Northern Ireland, but the flag incorporates Saint Patrick’s Flag, which represented all of Ireland. Northern Ireland had its own [national flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ulster_Banner) while it still had a government of its own, the flag went with the original Stormont government. ---
**Author:** ![I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9fc29f/32.png) [@I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_m_Ron_Burgundy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/7 "2007-08-07T13:47:25Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Socks] Other than the fact that a dragon would look rather silly on the current flag? England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are on the flag, why not Wales? Wales is just as much a part of the UK. [/QUOTE] Northern Ireland? On the British flag? Point to it. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/8 "2007-08-07T13:52:24Z")
[QUOTE=I’m Ron Burgundy?] Northern Ireland? On the British flag? Point to it. [/QUOTE] The red diagonal cross is the Cross of St. Patrick, which has represented Ireland on the UK flag since 1800 or so. Now it represents Northern Ireland on the flag since the rest of Ireland became independent. ---
**Author:** ![I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9fc29f/32.png) [@I\_m\_Ron\_Burgundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_m_Ron_Burgundy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/9 "2007-08-07T13:56:18Z")
Cite? The diagonals are Scottish AFAIK [Scotland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/10 "2007-08-07T13:59:47Z")
[QUOTE=I’m Ron Burgundy?] Cite? The diagonals are Scottish AFAIK [Scotland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) [/QUOTE] Part of the white diagonal (and all of the blue background) is the St Andrew’s Cross of Scotland, part is the white background to the red St Patrick’s Cross of Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/11 "2007-08-07T14:01:44Z")
[QUOTE=I’m Ron Burgundy?] Cite? The diagonals are Scottish AFAIK [Scotland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland) [/QUOTE] Scotland is the _white_ diagonal on the blue background. To summarize: The current UK flag is a composition of three older flags: The red horizontal/vertical cross, representing England ([Cross of St. George](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_George%27s_Cross)) The blue diagonal cross, representing Scotland ([Cross of St. Andrew, also called the Saltire Cross](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltire)) The red diagonal cross representing Ireland/Northern Ireland ([Cross of St. Patrick](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Patrick%27s_Flag)) See the wikipedia article on the [UK flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom) for more. ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/12 "2007-08-07T14:05:34Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Socks] Other than the fact that a dragon would look rather silly on the current flag? [/QUOTE] Shut your filthy mouth. :mad: There is no flag in the world that wouldn’t look better with the addition of a nice red dragon. In fact, when I get home from work, I’m going to Photoshop us some nice examples. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/13 "2007-08-07T14:27:40Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] Shut your filthy mouth. :mad: There is no flag in the world that wouldn’t look better with the addition of a nice red dragon. In fact, when I get home from work, I’m going to Photoshop us some nice examples. 😃 [/QUOTE] :: tries to imagine the US flag with a dragon :: ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/14 "2007-08-07T14:29:02Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] :: tries to imagine the US flag with a dragon :: [/QUOTE] \*Hint: dragons instead of stripes. \* 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/15 "2007-08-07T14:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp] \*Hint: dragons instead of stripes. \* 🆒 [/QUOTE] My head hurts now. Then there’s the Hawaiian flag… ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/16 "2007-08-07T14:53:57Z")
For the same reason that Cornwall isn’t represented? Cornwall was considered a kingdom from at least the [6th century](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_of_Cornwall) to [1066](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Cadoc). ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/17 "2007-08-07T16:59:06Z")
The Prince of Wales ought to be outraged. ---
**Author:** ![fortytwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f9ae1b/32.png) [@fortytwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fortytwo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/18 "2007-08-07T17:14:11Z")
[QUOTE=Usram] … top-level Welsh sports teams tend to play in the same leagues as English teams, whereas Scotland has its own leagues; generally, in many contexts England and Wales are lumped together in a way that England and Scotland are not. [/QUOTE] I like you **Usram** I like you a lot! It’s been a long time since my team (Swansea) has been called a top-level Welsh sports team. > [@Kosmik](#): > > The Prince of Wales ought to be outraged. Give Charlie a chance. As soon as he finishes talking to his plants he’ll get right down to be outraged, a bloke can only do one thing at a time you know. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/19 "2007-08-07T18:44:03Z")
[QUOTE=Kozmik] The Prince of Wales ought to be outraged. [/QUOTE] That does kind of answer the question, though. The term “United Kingdom” was created by virtue of uniting two kingdoms - England and Scotland - first at a regal level by the accession of James VI to become JAmes I of England, and then later, legally, by the Act of Union into the Kingdom of Great Britain, and then in 1801 adding Ireland to become, simply, the United Kingdom. Wales was a principality, and hence not a “kingdom,” and so it wasn’t really “United” as a “Kingdom.” The example of Cornwall is a good one. Cornwall has just as much claim to being a separate country as Wales does, and in fact some Cornish folks pretend it’s semi-independent in some vague way. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2007, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730/20 "2007-08-07T19:34:41Z")
There is also the point that Wales was only one united nation for around 50 years. Wales was a _region_ of related peoples and dynasties, not a true nation. wiki:_The Aberffraw dynasty would surge to pre-eminence with Owain Gwynedd’s grandson Llywelyn Fawr (the Great) (b.1173-1240), wrestling concessions out of the Magna Carta in 1215 and receiving the fealty of other Welsh lords in 1216 at the council at Aberdyfi, becoming the first Prince of Wales. His grandson Llywelyn II also secured the recognition of the title Prince of Wales from Henry III with the Treaty of Montgomery in 1267. Later however, a succession of disputes, including the imprisonment of Llywelyn’s wife Eleanor, daughter of Simon de Montfort, culminated in the first invasion by Edward I. As a result of military defeat, the Treaty of Aberconwy imposed English fealty over Llywelyn in 1277._ Scotland was a \*more or less \*unified nation for something around 700- 1400 years, depending on your definitons and loyalties. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-wales-not-represented-on-the-union-jack/414730.md?page=2)