There’s the attitude, right there. Those idiots, as you call them, have an equal say in voting, whether you like it or not. Calling them names and dismissing their views doesn’t make you right; it just shows your intolerance. It pisses them off and you get what you got Jan. 6th.
Trump does have charisma, if you define it as the ability to generate intense emotions in people. He can generate strong “positive” emotions among many, but also strong negative emotions among many.
This was actually measured this with science:
This wasn’t the source I was looking for (it was one comparing results of this kind of test between Trump and Hillary Clinton, with Trump’s effects lasting for an entire debate, whereas most politicians wouldn’t last that long).
So the fact that I haven’t pulled on a balaclava and invaded a government building means I’m not angry?
Dude, you’re the one (and so’s Wrenching_Spanners) who’s telling us liberals/Democrats in so many words that we are smarter and better than Trump supporters.
You’re openly declaring that Trump supporters, or at least a very significant and active subset of them, are not able to handle ideological antagonism and contempt from their political opponents without melting down into full-scale conspiracy-theory paranoia and even armed insurrection.
FFS, are you even listening to yourself? Don’t you see how immaturely petulant and irrational that sounds? “My side gets to insult and derogate your side all it wants, but if your side doesn’t stop insulting and derogating my side, we’re going to continue resorting to delusional paranoia and illegal violence because we’re just too fragile to handle your criticizing us the same way we criticize you!”
Pathetic.
Let’s tote up what we got Jan. 6th.
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Certification of Joe Biden as President.
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Wins in both Georgia run-off elections, giving the Democrats control of the Senate.
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A panty raid by the Proud Boys that left five dead, caused even Republicans to call for Trump’s resignation, removal, or impeachment, and denunciation, rejection, and total ostracism of the far-right.
Yeah, that was a good day for sanity and democracy and the future of our country. Thanks for reminding me.
I was not, and am not, but to pretend that Sanders is in any way comparable to Trump as a “grossly incompetent, mendacious, irresponsible ‘showman’ politician who makes me bullshit promises” is a ridiculously exaggerated false equivalence.
Wrong: what I was doing was explaining how pathetically inadequate and insulting (to Trump supporters themselves) were the reasons that you, and songsearch, were giving for “why Trump supporters support Trump”.
Myself, I haven’t proposed any particular reasons why Trump supporters support Trump. But the reasons you’ve proposed for it—namely, that they’re so hypersensitive and fragile about being looked down on by political opponents that they feel they have to take refuge in delusional paranoia and mob violence—make Trump supporters look worse and more contemptible than anything I’ve ever said or thought about them.
You’re the one making Trump supporters out to be irredeemably irrational and oversensitive, not me.
I’d say most of the reasons are because they Trumpdolts make them up themselves. But three big ones:
- “I love the undereducated.” DJT
- He hates blacks and Latinos
- He’s rich, so that means for many of the MAGAfucks, he’s brilliant! (See first example)
Don’t forget this: he also tells them that the complex issues they don’t really understand well are “fake news.” See, eg, global warming; the pandemic; the fact that people are a lot more complicated than their outward appearances.
Ya think? So the reason right-wing lunatics were trying to stage a coup and calling Democrats election-stealing freedom-hating anti-American socialists is because Democrats were mean to them and called them names? Otherwise the right-wing lunatics would be all-out Democratic supporters? Your political analysis is … um, somewhat lacking in insight.
Sure we do. Shit For Brains.
Windmills. Duh.
I think describing Bernie Sanders as a “grossly incompetent, mendacious, irresponsible ‘showman’ politician who makes bullshit promises” is indeed a fine description of Bernie Sanders. It was also a joke. Guess you didn’t find it very funny. I didn’t really expect you to, but I thought you’d be able to recognise the context. Oh well.
As to the second point, you described Trump supporters as people who are “jumping off a goddamned cliff into a swamp of permanent delusion.” At least half of this thread offers similar descriptions of Trump supporters. I’m not saying that liberals are the root cause of Trump supporters supporting Trump. Dissatisfaction with their position and prospects in American society and with changes in American society, and the emotional resentment that created are the root cause. A second cause is that many of the the values held by Trump supporters are different than many of the values held by liberals. That people hold different value sets is a fact of life and a proper reason for choosing a political party. I think the difference in values is an adequate reason for rejecting the Democratic Party (let’s face it - conservative values are superior to liberal values), although not necessarily for supporting Trump. However, the third cause, and the one I’m calling liberals including you out on is the derision that liberals have towards the people who became Trump supporters. Essentially the Trump supporters had a choice between a showman who was bullshitting them, but calling them good people, and a bunch of assholes who were calling them fools. Are you surprised they chose the bullshitter over the assholes?
Four years after Trump was elected, the message from liberals was essentially “Haven’t you fools learned your lesson about Trump yet?” It’s not a message that’s going to get people to switch sides. So no, liberals aren’t to blame for Trump supporters being who they are. But there are understandable reasons why Trump supporters did choose to support Trump. A big part of that is the conservative/liberal divide. And from what I see, liberals are working just as hard as Trump supporters, if not harder, to make that divide wider and wider. Don’t believe me? Reread this thread and the general sentiment towards Trump supporters.
That sounds like one of those “Schroedinger’s Comedy” attempts: “if there’s a chance that my remark could be in any way factually defensible then I stand by it, but if not then obviously it was just a joke that you’re too uptight and humorless to get”.
No, there is no factually defensible way that you can justify calling Sanders “grossly incompetent” or “mendacious” or “irresponsible” in comparison with Donald Trump. That’s the ridiculously exaggerated false equivalence I was talking about.
Well, what would you call the attachment of so many Trump supporters to so many factually indefensible flagrantly false beliefs, such as claims that the 2020 election was “stolen” from Trump by massive electoral “fraud” (that investigators and courts have not uncovered a shred of credible evidence for), and that a violent insurrection to “stop the steal” is an appropriate response? How is that not a cognitive swamp of delusion?
I’m not singling out Trump supporters for these criticisms because they’re conservative, you know: I have just as much condemnation for, say, liberal anti-vaxxers and other conspiracy theorists who are likewise “jumping off a goddamned cliff into a swamp of permanent delusion". This is not a matter of red vs. blue, this is a matter of flagrant irrationalism vs. rational fact.
I agree with you that all those are arguably credible reasons for becoming rational conservatives and supporting rational conservative positions. (With a caveat about reason #1 on the grounds that it’s actually conservative politicians, much more than liberal ones, who have really been undermining the “position and prospects” of ordinary Americans by their oligarchic catering to the wealthy and their callousness towards the struggles of the non-wealthy.)
But, as you yourself acknowledge, those are not valid justifications for becoming a Trump supporter rather than a rational conservative. When you declare that a large and influential subset of your fellow conservatives can’t handle the existence of an antagonistic “conservative/liberal divide” without taking refuge in outright delusion and violence, you are insulting Trump supporters worse than I ever did.
I get your larger point about more bipartisan tolerance and cooperation being a good idea for the functioning of democracy in general. But really, that conversation desperately needs to start on your side. It was your side back in the '90s who decided that Republicans were going to go for a scorched-earth policy of partisan antagonism and condemn bipartisan or moderate Republicans as “RINOs”. It was your side that embraced anti-factual delusional causes such as climate science denial, “trickle-down” economics, the teaching of creationism in science classes, and so forth.
And now you’re expecting Democrats/liberals just to overlook all that rampant hostility and delusionism, up to and including an actual violent mob riot attempting to prevent the legislative certification of a valid election, and make sure not to hurt the perpetrators’ feelings by calling them “fools”?
Tell you what, Wrenching_Spanners: how about you and your fellow rational conservatives take on the job of calling out your less rational fellow conservatives as “fools” when they’re actually and insistently acting like fools, and then we rational liberals won’t have to?
Seems to me like you want to have it both ways: You want the liberals to take on the responsibility of maintaining sane standards of public discourse and policy by calling out falsehood and delusion and science-rejectionism and “alternative facts”, so you don’t have to hurt any fellow conservatives’ feelings (and, perhaps, provoke their wrath) by disagreeing with them on their foolish notions.
But then you also want to do the partisan “virtue signaling” for your side by chastising the liberals when they call out falsehood and delusion and science-rejectionism and “alternative facts” for what they are.
Also…
Black people have been getting a raw got-damn deal in the United States for well over 200 years. More than any other demographic but one (namely, the 50 million people who got genocided off the continent), they have complete and total justification for being absolutely consumed with righteous fury. So by your argument, if American Blacks were to wake up tomorrow and decide they’ve finally had enough, whatever they do is, simply, what the rest of the country gets?
Hey, this absolves the party of separating kids fom their parents of all personal responsibility for their choices! Convenient, but also very easy to see through.
“I support Trump because those people are mean to me as a result of my support of Trump!”
Give me a break. Personal responsibility is for everyone, not just Democrats.
A while back someone posted that Trump is running a pigeon-drop con - where the victim believes he is part of the con and will benefit from it. The Trumpsters see themselves as members of a team that victimizes liberals. The lies, false news and crazy antics are all just part of their scam. The Trump voters are part of the con.
I believe he has a point.
Honestly, I would be relieved to think that that was the case.
I hate the thought of millions of Americans being willing to knowingly violate the principles of democracy and illegally nullify the votes of their fellow Americans because they want power for their faction at all costs and know they can’t obtain it legitimately. But what appalls me even more than that is the idea that millions of Americans are sincerely, truly so ignorant and incapable of critical thought that they genuinely believe the 2020 election was “stolen” and that a violent attempt to ignite an honest-to-God civil war was an appropriate response in defense of their freedom.
But yeah, I could see the possibility of a lot of Trump supporters being somewhere in the middle between those two states of mind: they might kind of know that Trump is a bullshitter and enjoy seeing the libs get all upset about his bullshit, but they’re also just credulous and uninformed enough to think it might be true that there was massive electoral fraud so taking over the process by violent insurrection is worth a shot.
Food for thought in the post that I believe Crane was referring to.
Let me see if I’ve got this right: If you oppose the Republicans it only makes them stronger, and if you don’t oppose the Republicans it only makes them stronger?
WTF?
Well, yes. That’s kind of how most things work.
If a bully wants to bully you and you hit back, that can enrage him and make him bully you even more.
And if you roll over and play dead, then you make it easy for him to trample on you.
So yes, opposing or not-opposing, both leads to strengthening, in a sense.
It’s not so much “how most things work” as much as it is an excuse to be a bully/asshole and blame someone else.