# Why isn't Europe enough for the white race? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438 "2012-12-28T23:01:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/61 "2012-12-30T05:33:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just 2. And not even that. Just Europe and the part of North America north of Mexico. > > Certainly, that is not too much to ask! So are we giving back Australia? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/62 "2012-12-30T05:42:26Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So are we giving back Australia? _The time has come. A fact’s a fact. It belongs to them. Let’s give it back!_ ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/63 "2012-12-30T07:19:19Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > The native americans were putzing around for thousands of years. They probably still would be if not for European whitey. So, you are saying that your ancestors were too stupid to figure anything out for themselves? You are saying that they were too stupid to learn from others? Is that really your point? The Europeans did not invent everything by themselves. They borrowed a lot of information from China and the Indian subcontinent through trade with the Arabs. There were also non-white cultures that learned from Europeans and who were very possibly on their way to matching Europe in terms of education, (and, hence, technology), in Africa before the Europeans and Arabs undermined their societies in a quest for chattel slaves. It is an accident of history that peoples in the Americas were invaded by Europeans bringing gunpowder and disease. Without those two agents, there is no reason to believe that American societies could not have met the Europeans on a more equal footing as trade partners and ascended the technological ladder in step with the Europeans. > [@billfish678](#): > > And for that matter the romantic notions of peaceful Indians and their idyllic life is probably a bunch of baloney for that matter. Since no one here has made any such silly claim, your straw man “argument” is out of place and irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/64 "2012-12-30T08:42:20Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Some of us consider that anybody who thinks “Mexicans” and “whites” to be mutually exclusive are too stupid to be let out without their handlers. Sadly, some of those morons are university professors… Disagree. Spaniards for the most part (95%+) are NOT Mexicans or related to in any way – unless you count 4/5/6 generations. In fact, you are promoting a stereotype/ignorance which I fell victim of quite a few times. “Funny you don’t look Mexican at all” – I am not. Which is not to say that Mexicans can’t comprise any ethnic group. And do. Look up Mitt Romney. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/65 "2012-12-30T16:31:20Z")
Why weren’t Eastern Europe and Asia enough for the barbarian hordes that overran the Roman Empire and the West? Why wasn’t Arabia enough for the followers of Mohammed? Why weren’t the Asian steppes enough for the tribes that crossed the landbridge to America and became the Native Americans? Why wasn’t Africa enough for the original humans? It’s the migratory instinct which has been part of being human since we first issued from the caves. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/66 "2012-12-30T16:43:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, you are saying that your ancestors were too stupid to figure anything out for themselves? You are saying that they were too stupid to learn from others? Is that really your point?. No, but the whitey/european/some other stuff added culture was better for allowing “progress” of all sorts of forms. Which is kinda why they progressed. Yeah, eventually the Indians, or the Africans or somebody might (probably) would have developed a socio/economic/scientific/religious/intellectual/something or other mindset that allowed them to make the progression from tribal life to the industrial revolution to walkin on the moon and computers and sharks with lasers on their heads and shit. But whitey/european culture lead the way. Sure they did lots of bad shit. So did pretty much everyone else. Difference is, they got “us” up to where we are today and the future is so bright I am gonna need shades. Everybody else claiming theyd “could have done it too” rings rather weak to me. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Yeah, you probably COULD have. But you didn’t. I don’t hate “you” because you didn’t. Don’t hate “me” because “I” did. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/67 "2012-12-30T17:43:29Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > No, but the whitey/european/some other stuff added culture was better for allowing “progress” of all sorts of forms. Which is kinda why they progressed. I have never seen any evidence of that. There are a number of societies that were stopped by European encroachments before they could develop in the same way and, following WWII, those societies that have not had European interference or ongoing internal conflicts have “joined” industrial society. > [@billfish678](#): > > Everybody else claiming theyd “could have done it too” rings rather weak to me. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Yeah, you probably COULD have. But you didn’t. I don’t hate “you” because you didn’t. Don’t hate “me” because “I” did. The OP made no claims that Europeans were evil. She took explicit note of the fact that a certain subset of “white pride” idiots were willing to be dismissive of non-European peoples in the context of European suppression of those peoples. There are a couple of posters who simply take the opposite tack and denigrate Europeans and their descendants for being nasty, but that is not the general view put forth in this thread and the appropriate response to such views is not to twist history or make absurd claims that some inherent quality meant that only Europeans could have accomplished what they did. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/68 "2012-12-30T17:56:54Z")
I’ll agree that it’s very likely that most of the Native American tribes of North America might have developed into advanced civilizations, but that had nothing to due with their “culture” or “stupidity” but other factors discussed by Jared Diamond and others. However, it should be noted there were advanced societies in the Americas prior to the coming of “the Europeans”, most notably the Mayans and the Aztecs. I know very little about pre-colonial history in the Americas but I’m sure people who do could go on at much greater length. Beyond that Bill, just because you may be of Native American descent hardly means you’re an expert on your ancestors from centuries ago. I am certainly quite interested in the modern Middle East and Iran, but I know very little about and frankly am not terribly interested in Ancient Persia. Similarly, most Greeks I know couldn’t care less about the Ancient Greeks and with rare exceptions most Egyptians have similar attitudes towards Egypt prior to the coming of the Arabs. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/69 "2012-12-30T18:11:43Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > make absurd claims that some inherent quality meant that only Europeans could have accomplished what they did. Who said that? Heck, who even implied it? Europeans did it first. And they just kept on going. IMO some other civilizations putzed around. Or came and went. And some others got kicked down by the Europeans or just got beaten to the punch by the Europeans. Thats pretty much how any competition goes. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/70 "2012-12-30T18:13:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Beyond that Bill, just because you may be of Native American descent hardly means you’re an expert on your ancestors from centuries ago. Did I make that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/71 "2012-12-30T18:18:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No “lamer” that that of their conquerors. Like I said, you need to travel more. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/72 "2012-12-30T18:37:27Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Who said that? Heck, who even implied it? You did: > [@billfish678](#): > > The native americans were putzing around for thousands of years. They probably still would be if not for European whitey. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/73 "2012-12-31T18:53:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I wouldn’t put much credence in such a long term economic prediction. Just imagine trying to predict modern China in 1970. Heck, ~20 years ago, it was Japan who was supposed to eat our economic lunch. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/74 "2012-12-31T19:47:36Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Heck, ~20 years ago, it was Japan who was supposed to eat our economic lunch. And, ironically, since the 80s, America seems to have really gained a huge soft-spot for sushi. In all seriousness, isn’t it in everyone’s best interest that our respective economies find some equilibrium, now that Asia, et al, are becoming huge economic powers? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/75 "2012-12-31T20:06:59Z")
[Quote=An Gadaí] I’d be genuinely curious whether there are significant examples of colonisers actually working primarily for the betterment of local populace and not as vampires. I know in Ireland that some plantation owners worked to create industry and education within their purviews but was any colonial project ever explicitly (and actually) for the betterment of the natives? [/quote] I don’t know that it was “primarily” for the betterment of the locals, but that attitude was certainly a part of British colonization in particular. See [The White Man’s Burden:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man%27s_Burden) > [@](#): > > Take up the White Man’s burden— > The savage wars of peace— > Fill full the mouth of Famine > And bid the sickness cease; > And when your goal is nearest > The end for others sought, > Watch Sloth and heathen Folly > Bring all your hope to nought. > > Take up the White Man’s burden— > No tawdry rule of kings, > But toil of serf and sweeper— > The tale of common things. > The ports ye shall not enter, > The roads ye shall not tread, > Go make them with your living, > And mark them with your dead In India, for example, [Thomas Babington Macauley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_Indian_subcontinent#Colonial_Era) made education a priority, and opened thousands of schools, and some universities. The British Raj also introduced a modern, secular legal code, introduced heavy industry, and rail travel. [George Curzon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Curzon) is a good place to start with your question, as Viceroy of India he was a vigorous social reformer. > [@](#): > > His agenda included the creation of the North-West Frontier Province; small changes in the Civil Service; speeding up the operations of the secretariat; setting up a gold standard to ensure a stable currency; creation of a Railway Board; irrigation reform; reduction of peasant debts; lowering the cost of telegrams; archaeological research and the preservation of antiquities; improvements in the universities; police reforms; upgrading the roles of the Native States; a new Commerce and Industry Department; promotion of industry; revised land revenue policies; lowering taxes; setting up agricultural banks; creating an Agricultural Department; sponsoring agricultural research; establishing an Imperial Library; creating an Imperial Cadet Corps; new famine codes; and, indeed, reducing the smoke nuisance in Calcutta. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/76 "2012-12-31T20:17:50Z")
Why wasn’t Rome enough for the Romans? Why did they have to slaughter, enslave, and impose cultural hegemony on all those millions of Teutons, Celts, and Slavs? For that matter, why didn’t the Indo-Europeans stay in their homeland on the Ukrainian steppe? Why did they have to wipe out/absorb all those aboriginal Europeans and their cultures? Now only the Basques are left. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/77 "2012-12-31T20:21:11Z")
For those pointing out the programs to educate and develop infrastructure, do note that these good programs often went hand-in-glove with programs to eradicate the local culture, something the colonizers began practicing at home in the Middle Ages. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/78 "2012-12-31T20:25:14Z")
> [@Dr. Drake](#): > > For those pointing out the programs to educate and develop infrastructure, do note that these good programs often went hand-in-glove with programs to eradicate the local culture, something the colonizers began practicing at home in the Middle Ages. Yes, but this done out of the belief that the colonizer’s culture was markedly superior. To the colonizer, then, the instillation of the superior culture was altruistic and beneficial to the colonized. It compares favorably with [outright pillage,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo) at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/79 "2012-12-31T20:44:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, but this done out of the belief that the colonizer’s culture was markedly superior. To the colonizer, then, the instillation of the superior culture was altruistic and beneficial to the colonized. That’s as weak a defense of colonization as “slavery was good for the slaves”. It doesn’t really matter (morally speaking, anyway) that some of the colonizers might have thought they were doing good- any more then it matters that some (likely most) slave-owners thought they were doing good in owning, breeding, and selling slaves. I think that most people, in most periods of history, believed that whatever they were doing was the right thing to do- even in the darkest parts of human history, which include colonization and slavery (along with genocide). ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/80 "2012-12-31T21:09:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s as weak a defense of colonization as “slavery was good for the slaves”. It doesn’t really matter (morally speaking, anyway) that some of the colonizers might have thought they were doing good- any more then it matters that some (likely most) slave-owners thought they were doing good in owning, breeding, and selling slaves. It matters when the question is: > [@An Gadaí](#): > > I’d be genuinely curious whether there are significant examples of colonisers actually working primarily for the betterment of local populace and not as vampires. This can only be addressed through the motives of the colonizers, as it questions their intent, not the results. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think that most people, in most periods of history, believed that whatever they were doing was the right thing to do- even in the darkest parts of human history, which include colonization and slavery (along with genocide). I think that’s too general a statement to be very useful in this discussion. Not all colonization practices were equal, nor were the motives the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438.md?page=5)