# Why isn't Europe enough for the white race? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438 "2012-12-28T23:01:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/81 "2012-12-31T21:19:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not all colonization practices were equal, nor were the motives the same. This is true, and I recognize that you were answering a question about motivations. As far as morality goes, I don’t think the motivations make much of a difference- it’s the actions that count. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/82 "2012-12-31T21:24:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is true, and I recognize that you were answering a question about motivations. Appreciated. This has been an unfocused, wide-ranging thread, with a lot of ideas being interjected, thus a lot of cross-chatter. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As far as morality goes, I don’t think the motivations make much of a difference- it’s the actions that count. I disagree with you here. Intent isn’t the sole criterion that makes an action moral or immoral, but it is the most important one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/83 "2012-12-31T21:49:29Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I disagree with you here. Intent isn’t the sole criterion that makes an action moral or immoral, but it is the most important one. I strongly disagree- undoubtedly there were slave-owners who thought (for example) they were helping a slave who, say, had tried to run away, by whipping him for punishment- and thus “helping” him to understand that his proper place was to be a slave on the plantation. IMO that doesn’t make it any better at all than a slave-owner who whips a slave because he’s a sadist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/84 "2012-12-31T21:57:10Z")
Note- I started a [new thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15848822#post15848822) about motivations and morality to avoid a hijack of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/85 "2012-12-31T22:14:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Note- I started a new thread about motivations and morality to avoid a hijack of this one. I shall post in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/86 "2013-01-01T06:41:19Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > For those pointing out the programs to educate and develop infrastructure, do note that these good programs often went hand-in-glove with programs to eradicate the local culture, something the colonizers began practicing at home in the Middle Ages. I hear that. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/87 "2013-01-01T07:00:11Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Whitey walked on the moon. > > Just sayin. Well, [for certain values of “whitey.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_jackson) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/88 "2013-01-01T07:01:18Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > For those pointing out the programs to educate and develop infrastructure, do note that these good programs often went hand-in-glove with programs to eradicate the local culture, something the colonizers began practicing at home in the Middle Ages. > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > I hear that. ☹ And you hear it in **English.** 😃 Works great, don’t it? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/89 "2013-01-01T07:03:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And you hear it in **English.** 😃 Works great, don’t it? Whale Oil Beef Hooked. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/90 "2013-01-01T07:05:25Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Why wasn’t Rome enough for the Romans? Why did they have to slaughter, enslave, and impose cultural hegemony on all those millions of Teutons, Celts, and Slavs? The way L. Sprague de Camp explained it in _Great Cities of the Ancient World,_ the Romans never actually set out to conquer the known world. As with the British Empire, they conquered it “in a fit of absence of mind.” They just happened to have a better army than any of their neighbors (being intensively trained, and always willing to learn and adopt new weapons and tactics). Wars with neighbors happened all the time as a matter of course, and the Romans kept winning the wars, and gaining territory. But now they had new border with barbarians on the other side of it raiding Roman territory . . . so to defend their established territory they had to go conquer **those** barbarians . . . and so on. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/91 "2013-01-01T07:09:55Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Whale Oil Beef Hooked. Or something related to English according to some linguists’ theories, anyway . . . ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/92 "2013-01-01T07:18:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Out of economic desperation, or fleeing political oppression. Not central heating and cell phones. And much of the problems they flee are created by “European civilization”; a world economy designed to benefit the West at the expense of everyone else, dictators propped up by the West and so on. Nonsense. Most immigrants are economic migrants who are moving precisely because life is better/easier in the west. Be that via jobs, benefits and inclusive of the standard of living. As for your other point, well perhaps a new thread is in order. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/93 "2013-01-01T07:26:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know that it was “primarily” for the betterment of the locals, but that attitude was certainly a part of British colonization in particular. See [The White Man’s Burden:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man%27s_Burden) That poem’s nuttin’! Weak-kneed PC multicultural bullshit! Check out Kipling’s [“A Song of the White Men”](http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/song_of_white_men.html): > [@](#): > > Now, this is the cup the White Men drink > When they go to right a wrong, > And that is the cup of the old world’s hate– > Cruel and strained and strong. > We have drunk that cup–and a bitter, bitter cup– > And tossed the dregs away. > But well for the world when the White Men drink > To the dawn of the White Man’s day! > Now, this is the road that the White Men tread > When they go to clean a land– > Iron underfoot and levin overhead > And the deep on either hand. > We have trod that road–and a wet and windy road– > Our chosen star for guide. > Oh, well for the world when the White Men tread > Their highway side by side! > Now, this is the faith that the White Men hold– > When they build their homes afar– > “Freedom for ourselves and freedom for our sons > And, failing freedom, War.” > We have proved our faith–bear witness to our faith, > Dear souls of freemen slain! > Oh, well for the world when the White Men join > To prove their faith again! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/94 "2013-01-01T07:29:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t know that it was “primarily” for the betterment of the locals, but that attitude was certainly a part of British colonization in particular. See [The White Man’s Burden:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Man%27s_Burden) > > In India, for example, [Thomas Babington Macauley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_Indian_subcontinent#Colonial_Era) made education a priority, and opened thousands of schools, and some universities. > > The British Raj also introduced a modern, secular legal code, introduced heavy industry, and rail travel. > > [George Curzon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Curzon) is a good place to start with your question, as Viceroy of India he was a vigorous social reformer. BTW, as to all that, see post #20 above. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/95 "2013-01-01T07:32:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I strongly disagree- undoubtedly there were slave-owners who thought (for example) they were helping a slave who, say, had tried to run away, by whipping him for punishment- and thus “helping” him to understand that his proper place was to be a slave on the plantation. Actually, they even had a clinical name for the mental illness that makes a slave want to run away: [Drapetomania.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania) They also had a clinical name for slave-laziness: [Dysaethesia Aethiopica.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysaethesia_Aethiopica) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/96 "2013-01-01T07:41:24Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > ETA: I suppose missionaries might count. A missionary in Darkest Africa was captured by the natives one day, and next thing he knew he found himself chin-deep in water in a huge cauldron (which can’t exist without blast-furnace technology, I know, shut up). He thought he was a goner, until he saw a native with an elaborate headdress, obviously the chief, kneeling by the cauldron with head bowed and hands clasped. The missionary cleared his throat. “Pardon me, my brother, are you, perhaps, a Christian?” The chief looked up and glared at at him, and snapped, “I certainly am! And please don’t interrupt me while I’m saying grace!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/97 "2013-01-01T07:52:08Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Disagree. Spaniards for the most part (95%+) are NOT Mexicans or related to in any way – unless you count 4/5/6 generations. In fact, you are promoting a stereotype/ignorance which I fell victim of quite a few times. > > “Funny you don’t look Mexican at all” – I am not. Which is not to say that Mexicans can’t comprise any ethnic group. And do. Look up Mitt Romney. OK, but answer me this: In the late Samuel P. Huntington’s [“Clash of Civilizations”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations) theory of international relations, post-Cold-War, with Communist ideology no longer a factor, there is a small number of cultural “civilizations” in the world, which will account for most international conflicts, nations of the same civilization more or less aligning with each other as against those of other civilizations. “Western” civilization includes Europe west of the Catholic/Orthodox divide. (“Orthodox” is a different civilization, which accounts for the political schizophrenia of the post-Soviet Ukraine, Catholic in the west and Orthodox in the east. But European Catholics and Protestants alike are “Western”.) Western civilization also includes the U.S., Canada, Australia – but not Latin America, that is a separate “Latin American” civilization – even though, as with the U.S. and Australia, its people speak a Western language and follow a Western religion. Now, why **is** that? Why does “Western” civilization include Spain and Portugal, but not Latin America? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/98 "2013-01-01T07:54:06Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > No “lamer” that that of their conquerors. Like I said, you need to travel more. [/QUOTE] Well shucks, I seem to have misplaced my time machine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/99 "2013-01-01T07:57:45Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Is this also the reason their situation was so lame pre-conquering? I should hope by now we all know [the answer to **that!**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438/100 "2013-01-01T08:00:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > North America belongs to the Anglo-Saxons because we were here third. Fourth. Don’t forget [the Sasquatch.](http://zapatopi.net/bsa/militia/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-europe-enough-for-the-white-race/645438.md?page=6)