# Why isn't "fundie" hate speech?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [May 29, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709 "2004-05-29T21:51:21Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/21 "2004-05-30T00:35:49Z")
> [@Early Out](#):
>
> Case in point.
The sound and the fury, signifying nothing.
---
### Author:  [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/22 "2004-05-30T00:37:32Z")
> [@milroyj](#):
>
> …However, I do think that refering to fundamentalists as a “hate-mongering cult” is hate speech.
A few questions:
[ul]
[li]Please give us your definition of hate speech, and how this fits it (I assume that you disagree with mine)[/li]
[li]Given that my understanding of fundamentalism is that it is a splinter from mainstream Christianity and that (from where I stand) their goals are pretty darn hateful, how is calling them hatemongering cultists factually incorrect?[/li][/ul]
Thanks.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/23 "2004-05-30T00:44:57Z")
> [@milroyj](#):
>
> Maybe I wasn’t clear. I don’t think “fundamentalist” or even “fundie” is hate speech.
>
> However, I do think that refering to fundamentalists as a “hate-mongering cult” is hate speech.
One of the definitions of cult is: **obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.**
I contend that christian fundamentalists are obsessively devoted to the principle of biblical inerrancy, and as a consequence they believe hatefull things (like homosexuals should be imprisoned or killed) and they also believe that nonbelievers will roast in hell
Ergo, they are a hate mongering cult.
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/24 "2004-05-30T00:47:41Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#):
>
> A few questions:
> [ul]
> [li]Please give us your definition of hate speech, and how this fits it (I assume that you disagree with mine)[/li]
> [li]Given that my understanding of fundamentalism is that it is a splinter from mainstream Christianity and that (from where I stand) their goals are pretty darn hateful, how is calling them hatemongering cultists factually incorrect?[/li][/ul]
> Thanks.
The mods and admins define hate speech for the purposes of this board.
I dunno, calling an entire group of people nasty names based on their religion seems pretty hateful to me.
Orthodox Jews are …
Wahabbi Muslims are…
isn’t allowed,
but Fundamentalist Christains are…
is allowed, for some reason.
Why is that?
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/25 "2004-05-30T00:49:56Z")
> [@Blalron](#):
>
> One of the definitions of cult is: **obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.**
>
> I contend that christian fundamentalists are obsessively devoted to the principle of biblical inerrancy, and as a consequence they believe hatefull things (like homosexuals should be imprisoned or killed) and they also believe that nonbelievers will roast in hell
>
> Ergo, they are a hate mongering cult.
Um, the same criteria could be applied to fundamentlist Islamists, ergo, they are a hate mongering cult. Right?
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### Author:  [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/26 "2004-05-30T00:51:49Z")
**milroyj** , Respectfully, you are not answering my question. I am not arguing that it is not hateful, rather that it is not _hate speech_. I see the two as very different things, and wonder what differs for you.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/27 "2004-05-30T00:57:03Z")
> [@milroyj](#):
>
> Um, the same criteria could be applied to fundamentlist Islamists, ergo, they are a hate mongering cult. Right?
Yep. Anybody who believes it’s alright to fly a hijacked airplane into a skyscraper full of people is not worthy of my verbal respect. Anybody who saws off a head with a rusty knife, videotapes it and puts it on the internet is not worthy of verbal respect.
If you’re wondering why it’s apparently ok to insult Christian Fundamentalists but not other fundamentalists, there is no contradiction. The reason for it is that I don’t encounter a lot of fanatical muslims in my day to day life, but I do personally encounter a lot of fanatical christians. Most of us on this board are from christian dominated countries. Therefore there will be a hugely disproportionate number of threads disparaging Christian hate mongering cults than other types of hate mongering cults.
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### Author:  [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/28 "2004-05-30T01:01:50Z")
Hey,[n]Milroyj\*\*, kiss my ass, pal.
Fundamentalist Christians have made one of their goals the eradication of civil equality for gay people. Their repeated legal and social attacks on gay people makes them a hatemongering cult.
Given that you are of the biggest spewers of racist, homophobic, Bush-fucking garbage on this board, you are in no position to tell me how to post.
So fuck off, Bigot Boy.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/29 "2004-05-30T01:03:35Z")
> [@milroyj](#):
>
> The mods and admins define hate speech for the purposes of this board.
>
> I dunno, calling an entire group of people nasty names based on their religion seems pretty hateful to me.
>
> Orthodox Jews are …
> Wahabbi Muslims are…
>
> isn’t allowed,
>
> but Fundamentalist Christains are…
>
> is allowed, for some reason.
>
> Why is that?
Find me an Orthodox Jew that wants to make it illegal for anybody to eat pork, and tries to force his purely religious beliefs onto people who don’t share his views. I will be the first in line to call him an extremist “fundie”
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/30 "2004-05-30T01:03:41Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#):
>
> **milroyj** , Respectfully, you are not answering my question. I am not arguing that it is not hateful, rather that it is not _hate speech_. I see the two as very different things, and wonder what differs for you.
Respectfully, I don’t see the difference. If you could explain, that would be great. Thanks.
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/31 "2004-05-30T01:03:42Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#):
>
> I think that friend **gobear** is hitting on a very important point. The element of the power dynamic. For example, if a black person were to call me a honkey, I really would not feel as if I were a victim of hate speech. On the other hand if I, a white man, were to use racial pejoratives it would be hate speach. This is because, in this society, I am a member of the group in charge.
>
> The same is true for the term fundie. Bottom line here is that the Christians are running the show in this country. Now, it may be that it is offensive language, but I think that you would be engaging in some pretty tricky mental gymnastics to label it as hate speech.
If a hispanic man called a black man a nigger is that hate speach? Hispanics certainly aren’t of the group in charge in our society but I certainly think that would qualify as hate speech.
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### Author:  [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/32 "2004-05-30T01:08:27Z")
> [@milroyj](#):
>
> Respectfully, I don’t see the difference. If you could explain, that would be great. Thanks.
I have already defined how I define hate speech. You have not. The ball is in your court, my friend.
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### Author:  [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/33 "2004-05-30T01:14:54Z")
> [@treis](#):
>
> If a hispanic man called a black man a nigger is that hate speach? Hispanics certainly aren’t of the group in charge in our society but I certainly think that would qualify as hate speech.
To be honest, a lot of that is contextual. For example: A lot of my working life has been spent in kitchens. The saying goes “there are no white people in the kitchen”. My fellow chefs called each other things that would have gotten us fired in just about any other profession, but for some reason the atmosphere was harmonious.
I think that this is because we were all depending on each other, all doing the same work and all treated the same (like scum). I guess that my point is that I think that in order for there to be hate speech, there has to be a power imbalance and inequity. That being said, I could not judge the case between your hypothetical people (although I will say that my take is that Hispanics seem to be assimilating in to the mainstream with a bit more success, and so there could be a power imbalance at play).
Indeed, I think that you are hitting on something that is flawed with this entire debate. We all seem to yearn for some clear cut immovable definition, when the fact is that the situation is simply far too dynamic for that to work.
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/34 "2004-05-30T01:15:59Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#):
>
> I have already defined how I define hate speech. You have not. The ball is in your court, my friend.
I disagree then. Your claim that it is only hate speech if a majority group uses it against a minority group doesn’t wash. Hate is hate. Muslims calling for death for Americans is just as hateful as the KKK calling for death for black people.
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### Author:  [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/35 "2004-05-30T01:23:00Z")
So then the variance of power dynamics and the ability to systemically act on the “hate speech” is meaningless to you? Seems a little lacking in nuanced thinking to me.
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### Author:  [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/36 "2004-05-30T01:24:47Z")
The list up toward the top, I agree with none of it, yet I feel I am a “fundie” because I believe God created the world and such in 6 literal days and that the Bible ad no other religious book is God’s word (though sometimes its obscure and some contradictions yes, but none messing with the REAL message).
I also believe oahs voyage really happened, but have o proof.
I have never voted against any homosexual rights or aythign else, and certainly no fundies I’ve known have been for imprisoning or killing any gay person.
In fact, I am quite liberal.
So I dunno if I qualify for the title fundie.
If so, I find it not insult at all, why would I?
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### Author:  [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/37 "2004-05-30T01:26:36Z")
> [@milroyj](#):
>
> I disagree then. Your claim that it is only hate speech if a majority group uses it against a minority group doesn’t wash. Hate is hate. Muslims calling for death for Americans is just as hateful as the KKK calling for death for black people.
Muslim extremists calling for the death of Americans are hateful fundamentalists. Call them what you will
However calling all Muslims murders are wrong. Just like it would be wrong to call all Christains fundies.
See the difference between a group and the fringes of that group?
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/38 "2004-05-30T01:29:46Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#):
>
> So then the variance of power dynamics and the ability to systemically act on the “hate speech” is meaningless to you? Seems a little lacking in nuanced thinking to me.
By your theory, only white male christains can be guilty of hate speech. I’m not buying it. If that makes me unnaunced, so be it.
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### Author:  [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/39 "2004-05-30T01:34:18Z")
> [@milroyj](#):
>
> By your theory, only white male christains can be guilty of hate speech. I’m not buying it. If that makes me unnaunced, so be it.
Not at all, but the fact that you are reading my posts that way is pointing to a certain lack of sophistication of thought. My point is that power dynamics are a fluid thing. A veritable mosaic of possibility and subtlety and it is from imbalance in this dynamic that hate speech springs.
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [May 30, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/40 "2004-05-30T01:51:49Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#):
>
> A veritable mosaic of possibility and subtlety and it is from imbalance in this dynamic that hate speech springs.
Bullshit. Hate speech springs from hateful people. Not from any “imbalance in power dynamics.” That is the biggest ejaculation of creepy PC liberal nonsense I’ve ever heard. Get over yourself, please.
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