# Why isn't "fundie" hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709 "2004-05-29T21:51:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/101 "2004-05-31T11:14:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Context? Let’s examine the context, then. Below I’ve quoted each of the posts you cited. > [@Liberal](#): > > Once again, here are the examples I gave Flight, all culled from the first couple of pages searching on the term “fundie”: [idiot](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4910994&highlight=fundie#post4910994), > [@](#): > > Heh, the only time I saw the word “ignostic” was when a Fundie compared it to the word “ignoble”. Yeah, I thought it was silly, too. > [@Liberal](#): > > [secessionist lunatic,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4901904&highlight=fundie#post4901904) > [@](#): > > I am well aware of the role of religious charities, and that many conservatives feel that this would be a superior option to governmental assistance. I don’t agree, because I am less than confident that the funds raised through voluntary charity would be sufficient to meet the need, or would be adequately distributed, and because I feel that someone’s access to assistance should not be totally dependent on his religion or his willingness to be preached to. (The church I went to growing up did a lot of charity work in the community, but the actual charity always seemed secondary to the goal of getting people to church and to the Lord. They wouldn’t have denied this. Just my experience.) > > Maybe if Fundistan is a success, we’ll get to see which approach works better. > > Let’s not hijack this any further. Let’s get back to making fun of the secessionist fundie lunatics. > [@Liberal](#): > > [just plain loon](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4901129&highlight=fundie#post4901129), > [@](#): > > It happens with role-playing game books, too. I don’t think I’ve seen an actual AD&D rulebook on the library shelf in my entire life (33 years). They’re in the card catalog (now the computer database), but they just don’t exist on the shelves. > > The sad thing is that I can’t figure out whether it’s fundie loons deciding to save the children from eternal damnation or the damn kids who are too cheap to actually buy the books. > [@Liberal](#): > > [thief](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4899491&highlight=fundie#post4899491), > [@](#): > > I think there was one at my library. Every time I’d go to check a book out about Wicca, the book was listed as “lost.” > > Either some Wiccan didn’t want to return the book, or some fundie decided to remove it permanently from the shelves to protect the _children_. > [@Liberal](#): > > [ignorant relative](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4887835&highlight=fundie#post4887835), > [@](#): > > I’ll credit this board with preservation of the precious little sanity I have left. After every interaction with my close, loving, ignorant fundie relatives, I come here and read. Glorious antidote, reminds me there’s still intelligent life out there. > [@Liberal](#): > > [right winger](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4887179&highlight=fundie#post4887179), > [@](#): > > The only mistake Bush & Co. HAVEN’T made in Iraq… > > * * * > > They haven’t heeded the fundie wing’s call to flood Iraq with Christian missionaries. > > Yet. > > That I’ve heard of. > [@Liberal](#): > > [asshole](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4875523&highlight=fundie#post4875523), > [@](#): > > Well, **Lib** , people see what they expect to see, I suppose. > > For example, I see the word “Fundie” as more synonymous with “asshole” than with “nigger”, as the N-word is used by intolerant people to indiscriminantly slur black people. However, “Fundie” is applied to certain folks quite discriminantly, based solely on their own behavior. > > To cut it short: People need to EARN the privilege of being labeled a “fundie”. Not so for racial slurs. > [@Liberal](#): > > [superstitious bigot](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4875251&highlight=fundie#post4875251), > [@](#): > > Gee, **Lib** , that’s interesting because the article you linked mentions someone who considers himself a fundamentalist Christian who supports gay rights. My reference was to “Fundies”, a subset of Fundamentalist Christianity ( although it is almost all-encompasing, be honest if nothing else ) who do believe that they have every right to use their particular religious beliefs as the basis for secular laws, and are totaly fine with descrimination as long as they can justify using their personal superstitions. > > Sorry **Lib** , I gotta stand by the term I used. If you consider yourself a fundamentalist Christian, yet you support things like gay rights, SOCS, the freedom of others to follow a different religion, etc…Why, then, you’re not a Fundie. > [@Liberal](#): > > [nutjob](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4847711&highlight=fundie#post4847711), > [@](#): > > Of course, the fundie nutjobs don’t really need much in the way of an excuse to kidnap and murder Americans. (Danny Pearl, anyone?) But I can confidently predict that before the week is out, the usual suspects will be beating their chests while standing on the headless corpse of the unfortunate Mr. Berg. Heck, I bet they’re equating Berg’s killers with the “terrorists and murderers in Abu Gharaib” before the day is out. > [@Liberal](#): > > [humorless crybaby](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4840660&highlight=fundie#post4840660), > [@](#): > > My fundie mom finally saw ‘The Passion’ > > * * * > > So, my Mom finally got around to seeing ‘The Passion Of The Christ’. As expected, she was weepily telling me about His sacrifice, and we got into a very minor difference of opinion, as I feel a day or so of agony isn’t much of a sacrifice when you’re going to heaven for all eternity afterwards. But that’s a subject for other threads (that already exist in GD and the Pit). > > She told me that after the movie ended, everybody was so stunned that they just sat there. I said “Mom, they were just waiting for the funny bloopers during the credits!” She didn’t find that as amusing as I hoped she would. > > She and I get along very well, so don’t get the impression we’re constantly arguing. We’ve both gone through very hard times recently, and we support each other emotionally. > [@Liberal](#): > > [incorrigible fact distorter](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4826459&highlight=fundie#post4826459), > [@](#): > > This is my likely last post here, because you’re just not worth arguing with. You are worse than any fundie that has ever graced this board because you have absolutely made up your mind, Marxism is your religion, and like good fundies everwhere you twist and distort fact until they are unrecognizeable because you start with a conclusion and everything has to be made to fit that conclusion; if it dosen’t, why, that might cause you to question your blind faith in Communist dogma. I’ll just point out one more thing: The part of your Nazi/Zionist conspiracy that you’ve omitted is what exactly the original final solution was. Originally, Nazi’s simply wanted all Jews exiled from Germany, and if it was to a Jewish state, that was fine with them. Naturally this would atract the interest of Zionists who wanted to found a Jewish state, after all, Jews are needed to populate it, right? When this solution proved unworkable (from a German POV, there simply wasn’t any place for the Jews to emmigrate to), the final solution morphed into the butchery that was the holocaust. > > Here’s one final thing for you to chew on. If there had been an Israel in the mid 1930s (if the evil Zionists had had their evil way, in other words), it is likely the holocaust (as we know it)would never have happened, because the Jews in Germany would have been (forcibly) relocated there. That’s upwards of 6 million people who would not have died horribly, if only the evil Zionists’ evil plans had come to their evil fruition 12 or 13 years earlier. > [@Liberal](#): > > [pornographer](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4803453&highlight=fundie#post4803453), > [@](#): > > **Vanilla** , your fundie porn daydreams that “yeah, someday Jesus will come back and THEN they’ll be sorry” are really unconvincing to anyone with two neurons to rub together. Every other religion has the same eschatological fantasies of judgment when the sinners will be punuahed and the righteous exalted–I don’t believe the Muslims either when they talk about the Day of Judgement, and their book is newer than yours. > > What’s sad is that this new crowd has so thoroughly brainwashed you, just like when you were soooo convinced that the Mormons were following the True Path. > > What I find so baffling about fundies like you is your solid confidence that you, and only you, have the inside skinny on the true interpretation of the Bible, yet you ignore virtually everything Jesus ever said or did, instead you slavishly follow weird, cultish beliefs derived from 19th-century British wackos that have no Biblical justification. > [@Liberal](#): > > [hate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4800410&highlight=fundie#post4800410) > [@](#): > > Here’s one atheist who makes a clear distinction between the two. Heck, if a Christian chose to self-describe as fundamentalist, and tried to live his or her life by such strict tenets, but didn’t feel called by God to cram said tenets down everyone else’s throat, I’d respect that person as a sincere Christian too. People here like you, Polycarp, Siege to me are admirable examples of living one’s faith with Christ’s message of love foremost in their dealings with others. > > One of my best friends is Christian. (Ha! It’s about time one of us godless heathens trotted that one out, eh?) I consider her a saint on Earth – not because she’s vociferously devout, or patently pious, or a regular churchgoer – she’s not. Well, she’d go more often to church if the severely disabled foster children she takes care of left her the time. Nope, she’s earthy, often profane, and far from sinless. But she’s also loving, kind, generous, and a hearth at which all who love her, or need love, faithful or not, can warm themselves. I’m pretty sure she’s against abortion, but she doesn’t preach about it. She has too much respect for others to demand that they follow the path she’s chosen to a good life. I wish every Christian could be like her. > [@Liberal](#): > > [group](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4800009&highlight=fundie#post4800009) > [@](#): > > I’m not picking on you…but just out of curiosity…do you differentiate between Fundie Christians and Christians or do you consider all Christians to be a hate group? > > Seriously, I’m not being a smartass…I’m really curious. > [@Liberal](#): > > [member](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4799995&highlight=fundie#post4799995), > [@](#): > > This is patently false. We are also intolerant of homophobes, racists, and misogynists. > > So you see, it’s not just Fundie Christians, but any hate group really. > [@Liberal](#): > > and [whack job](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4790674&highlight=fundie#post4790674), > [@](#): > > Uh, local governments everywhere can sell off real estate to any fundie whack job. And they’re given tax exemptions as well. I don’t see a problem with that. > [@Liberal](#): > > to name a few. > > Would you care to explain how, in those contexts, a person might not be offended or how “fundie” is not the rhetorical equivalent of “raghead”? Because, in all but one of those contexts, the term “fundie” was being used purely as a shortened form of “fundamentalist”. I also note that a couple of those posts actually involve people arguing with you about what the word “fundie” means, and that furthermore, you severely mischaracterize several of the posts, particularly the the ones you labelled as "humorless crybaby, “hate” and “pornographer”. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/102 "2004-05-31T12:17:38Z")
Don’t be so hard on yourself, Desmo. You’re not an idiot, just mildly retarded. I do appreciate your going to the trouble, though, to show that in every instance the term was used as an instrument of offense. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/103 "2004-05-31T12:33:04Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Don’t be so hard on yourself, Desmo. You’re not an idiot, just mildly retarded. “I’m rubber, you’re glue” is just such a witty response, I hardly ever get tired of you using it. > [@Liberal](#): > > I do appreciate your going to the trouble, though, to show that in every instance the term was used as an instrument of offense. If you find all of those instances offensive, there’s not much that can be done to help you. I suggest that you cease to frequent this place that causes you so much offense. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/104 "2004-05-31T12:40:10Z")
I think only an idiot would defend those insults as inoffensive. I think that in your usual rush to nip at my ankles, you had another one of your patented mini-meltdowns. And I think your suggestion is classic Amurika Love It Or Leave It 1970s conservative bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/105 "2004-05-31T12:59:33Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think only an idiot would defend those insults as inoffensive. I think that in your usual rush to nip at my ankles, you had another one of your patented mini-meltdowns. And I think your suggestion is classic Amurika Love It Or Leave It 1970s conservative bullshit. In most of those cases, “fundie” is either modified or is used as a modifier. In other cases, especially the “humorless crybaby”, you are straining at gnats. I only see one or two instances in which “fundie” could be taken as even mildly offensive, and no instances of “fundie” being used as hate speech. If that makes me an idiot in your eyes, I guess I’ll just have to live with it. I ask again, is there some reason you find it difficult to grant people using the shortcut “fundie” the same latitude you grant yourself in the use of “hand stabber”? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/106 "2004-05-31T13:03:00Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I think only an idiot would defend those insults as inoffensive. I see. So, for example, you find **minty** ’s characterization of the people who beheaded Nick Berg offensive, because he juxtaposed the term “fundie” with “nutjob”. And you find **revtim** ’s touching story about watching _The Passion of the Christ_ with his tearful mother offensive because it includes the term “fundie”. > [@Liberal](#): > > I think that in your usual rush to nip at my ankles, you had another one of your patented mini-meltdowns. :rolleyes: > [@Liberal](#): > > And I think your suggestion is classic Amurika Love It Or Leave It 1970s conservative bullshit. No, you’re completely wrong. I interpret your purpose in this thread as being along the lines of “I don’t like it! Ban it!”. My response is “If you don’t like it, _don’t fucking read it_”. And perhaps I was wrong in calling you an idiot. “Total loon” was probably more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/107 "2004-05-31T13:20:20Z")
And once again poor **Lib** goes off the deep end. What a surprise… And FWIW, I’ve never seen your supposed “patented mini-meltdowns”, **Desmo** , but we’ve _all_ seen **Lib** ’s patented major-meltdowns…and this looks like the beginning of yet another. Oh well. Sorry, **Lib** , you lose. **Gaudere** laid it out pretty clearly for you. Now get the fuck over it. Or just leave, for God’s sake, and save a lot of us the trouble of having to deal with your fucking lunacy. (And enough with the “ankle-biting” nonsense, please…you use it so often it’s starting to make you look like a…oh, never mind.) ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/108 "2004-05-31T13:30:17Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Let’s examine the context, then. Below I’ve quoted each of the posts you cited. > > [snip] > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by Liberal > > hate > > > > Quote: > > Here’s one atheist who makes a clear distinction between the two. Heck, if a Christian chose to self-describe as fundamentalist, and tried to live his or her life by such strict tenets, but didn’t feel called by God to cram said tenets down everyone else’s throat, I’d respect that person as a sincere Christian too. People here like you, Polycarp, Siege to me are admirable examples of living one’s faith with Christ’s message of love foremost in their dealings with others. > > > > One of my best friends is Christian. (Ha! It’s about time one of us godless heathens trotted that one out, eh?) I consider her a saint on Earth – not because she’s vociferously devout, or patently pious, or a regular churchgoer – she’s not. Well, she’d go more often to church if the severely disabled foster children she takes care of left her the time. Nope, she’s earthy, often profane, and far from sinless. But she’s also loving, kind, generous, and a hearth at which all who love her, or need love, faithful or not, can warm themselves. I’m pretty sure she’s against abortion, but she doesn’t preach about it. She has too much respect for others to demand that they follow the path she’s chosen to a good life. I wish every Christian could be like her. > > [snip] > > Because, in all but one of those contexts, the term “fundie” was being used purely as a shortened form of “fundamentalist”. > > I also note that a couple of those posts actually involve people arguing with you about what the word “fundie” means, and that furthermore, you severely mischaracterize several of the posts, particularly the the ones you labelled as "humorless crybaby, “hate” and “pornographer”. > > Idiot. Wow. As the rabid bigot who was responsible for **Lib’s** “hate” example, I gotta say, you’ve nailed it, **Desmostylus**. Thank you. **Lib** , if you can sincerely believe you’re correct in taking my words and twisting them into hate speech, you really are a whacko nutjob. Whatever your religious affiliation. ---
**Author:** ![GingerOfTheNorth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/cdc98d/32.png) [@GingerOfTheNorth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GingerOfTheNorth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/109 "2004-05-31T14:32:19Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > **Lib** , if you can sincerely believe you’re correct in taking my words and twisting them into hate speech, you really are a whacko nutjob. Whatever your religious affiliation. Now, I think we may be being a bit uncharitable here. I’m not convinced he’s a whacko nutjob - I think that he may have been working on a model and sniffing the glue a little too much, before posting. That’s the best explaination I can come up with. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/110 "2004-05-31T15:19:21Z")
> [@GingerOfTheNorth](#): > > Now, I think we may be being a bit uncharitable here. I’m not convinced he’s a whacko nutjob - I think that he may have been working on a model and sniffing the glue a little too much, before posting. That’s the best explaination I can come up with. In the absence of previous periodic meltdowns on **Lib(ertarian)eral’s** part, perhaps. On the other hand, you can usually set your clock by his “exiled to Fathom” cycle. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/111 "2004-05-31T16:02:18Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Neurological researcher, VS Ramachandran and others have determined experimentally that there seems to be a link between the brain’s limbic system and religious faith. That’s why you cannot now simply declare that you will believe in God any more than you can declare that you will be attracted to men (or women, whichever is the case). I’m a little surprised to see you use this point in this fashion, given that you often reference it to support the seemingly contrary idea that nobody knows which way causality runs when it comes to finding neurological connections between religious experiences and potential religious realities. Certainly Ramachandran doesn’t come to the conclusion that you draw from his research (that one can’t simply decide to believe in God), and even though I agree with the conclusion, I wouldn’t want to imply that there is research that supports it beyond merely my own experience with people’s beliefs. Indeed, his limbic system connection isn’t something that they believe to be majorly active in most believers’s day to day belief, but rather in the minority who have what is vaugely defined as the “religious experience.” It isn’t belief in god that they induce in the lab, it’s what Freud described as the “oceanic feeling” a feeling of being connected to larger things and the world around you, or of a prescence (not unlike what seems to happen to people who awake at night unable to move and feel a sense of prescence, which many attribute in that scary context to demons or aliens). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/112 "2004-05-31T16:19:12Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > neurological connections between religious experiences and potential religious realities And even then, millions of examples of conversion are strongly suggestive that while the urge for a religious experience may have deep neuro/psychological connections, the specific religious behavior practiced is a choice. In any case, back to OP, it can be, but it’s not necessarily so – depends on context. Not every put-down or insult, and even less so any possible word-which-might-cause-offense is hate-speech. To use **Colibrí** ’s example, “Hispanic” is offensive to some of our [more up-tight brands of] fellow latinos, but it’s NOT hate-speech: the usage _bothers_ many because it’s seen as a kludged-up invention of the Census Bureau imposed for pigeonholing purposes, but it is not born of “hate” (Myself, heck, I got no problem with it). ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/113 "2004-05-31T16:57:35Z")
I don’t really see the problem here for the SD. Instead of endless particular rules about what is and isn’t an okay way to act, we have the Don’t Be A Jerk rule. That may allow too much subjectivity, but it’s pretty good at avoiding the sort of word/po-mo theory parsing that would happen otherwise with explicit rules. It seems pretty clear that “fundie” can be used as hate speech, and has been used as such, though it needn’t be used so. The mods are ultimately going to have to decide where the line is crossed, and given that I don’t think it’s beyond the pale to draw their attention to a potential blinder. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/114 "2004-05-31T17:16:50Z")
> [@TYM](#): > > I ask again, is there some reason you find it difficult to grant people using the shortcut “fundie” the same latitude you grant yourself in the use of “hand stabber”? I say again that I would be happy to say good riddance to both. > [@ETF](#): > > Thank you. Lib, if you can sincerely believe you’re correct in taking my words and twisting them into hate speech, you really are a whacko nutjob. Actually, the link was slightly off. I apologize to you. I intended to reference the nearby discussion that included the following exchange: “I’m not picking on you…but just out of curiosity…do you differentiate between Fundie Christians and Christians or do you consider all Christians to be a hate group”. That statement establishes Fundamentalists as a hate group. > [@Apos](#): > > I’m a little surprised to see you use this point in this fashion, given that you often reference it to support the seemingly contrary idea that nobody knows which way causality runs when it comes to finding neurological connections between religious experiences and potential religious realities. For purposes of my discussion with Dio, it doesn’t matter about causality, and yes, VSR clearly stated that determination of causality is probably not possible. My point to Dio was that faith is not a “choice”, no matter which way it goes — whether the brain compels or God compels. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/115 "2004-05-31T18:28:48Z")
> [@Shade](#): > > But wouldn’t the same argument prove that “evangelical christian”\* or “American” is hate speach, since some people make the incorrect generalisation that “Evangelical Christians are shitheads” or “Americans are shitheads.”? There has to be something more to it than that. If “fundie” is ALWAYS used in that sense, then it becomes hate speach. But people still sometimes use it as just an abbreviation IME. Well, that’s why I said I had no opinion as to whether or not it was hate speech. I think the problem is that the usage of “fundie” can be something other than your definition of hate speech, but still be something we should avoid using. That is to say, just because you can say something without getting banned, that doesn’t mean you aren’t being a jerk. In the case of the “Americans are shitheads,” the difference is that, from what I’ve seen, “fundie” _is_ always used in a derogatory sense around here. The fact that it can be used as a simple abbreviation notwithstanding, I think it’s clear that it has a more common derogatory usage. Like **Apos** said, it can be used as obvious hate speech, or it can be used as something else. All I’m saying is that the way people usually say “fundie” around here is similar to the way other people use racial slurs. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/116 "2004-05-31T18:57:38Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > from what I’ve seen, “fundie” _is_ always used in a derogatory sense around here. The fact that it can be used as a simple abbreviation notwithstanding, I think it’s clear that it has a more common derogatory usage. Like **Apos** said, it can be used as obvious hate speech, or it can be used as something else. All I’m saying is that the way people usually say “fundie” around here is similar to the way other people use racial slurs. If I yelled “hey there fundie!” to a christian walking out of church, I don’t think they’d feel anywhere close to how a black man would feel being called a “nigger” as he was walking down the street. Those two words aren’t in the same ballpark, they aren’t even in the same league. I say this as a former fundie myself. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/117 "2004-05-31T19:18:52Z")
Which is why I said there was a difference of degree, and that “fundie” is less offensive than racial epithets. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/118 "2004-05-31T19:24:38Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > If I yelled “hey there fundie!” to a christian walking out of church, I don’t think they’d feel anywhere close to how a black man would feel being called a “nigger” as he was walking down the street. Those two words aren’t in the same ballpark, they aren’t even in the same league. I say this as a former fundie myself. I think you’re right about the difference in degree. Of course, it took many years for “nigger” to become the unholy unspeakable uber-pejorative that it is today. I consider “fundie” to be more in the class of “raghead”. Nevertheless, some fundamentalists, like [The Raindog](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4841907#post4841907), see it as a derisive taunt, which makes it more equivalent to “nigger” in 1959. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/119 "2004-05-31T20:28:07Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > For purposes of my discussion with Dio, it doesn’t matter about causality, and yes, VSR clearly stated that determination of causality is probably not possible. My point to Dio was that faith is not a “choice”, no matter which way it goes — whether the brain compels or God compels. But I doubt anyone can establish such a point, and VSR’s research doesn’t really have anything to add on the subject. I agree that most people don’t seem in a state in which they can just choose to believe or not believe anything, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible, or that the only options both include being compelled to choose. If we say that the brain chooses, depending on where we locate conscious volition, we might as well just be saying that the person chooses. For whatever underlying reason or motivation, people do at some points in regard to some issues, describe choosing to believe this or that: sometimes completely reversing previous positions. I don’t see why that shouldn’t be the case in regards to religious belief as well. > [@](#): > > If I yelled “hey there fundie!” to a christian walking out of church, I don’t think they’d feel anywhere close to how a black man would feel being called a “nigger” as he was walking down the street. I don’t think how a given person might feel is quite as important as how the yeller feels. If the whole point of the term is to use an easy shorthand shortcut to denigrate someone, then it’s probably some sort of hate speech, no matter whether it’s a completely new term or an old established one. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/120 "2004-05-31T22:45:23Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > That isn’t necessarily true. Neurological researcher, VS Ramachandran and others have determined experimentally that there seems to be a link between the brain’s limbic system and religious faith. That’s why you cannot now simply declare that you will believe in God any more than you can declare that you will be attracted to men (or women, whichever is the case). I did not “choose” to believe. It’s just simply that one moment I did not, and the next moment I did. A generic belief in God or a predisposition to faith is not the same as taking specific dogmatic positions which are either demonstrably false (and therefore stupid) or activley bigoted, intolerant or hostile. There is no genetic component to hating gay people or to thinking the earth is 6000 years old. Faith has to be reconciled with reason and a person completely subverts reason to faith is not going to win any fans on a message board devoted to fighting ignorance. No one uses “fundie” simply for those who have faith, and theistic belief _per se_ is usually not ridiculed or demeaned around here. Even if we get the occasional atheist bomb thrower, they are invariably pulled up short by other posters, and quite often by non-theistic posters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709.md?page=7)