# Why isn't "fundie" hate speech? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2004, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709 "2004-05-29T21:51:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/121 "2004-05-31T23:18:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > The record shows that I did in fact respond to your questions in my first post when I came back the following day. I found what you asked for — **_some_ evidence** that fundamentalists in general are offended by the term. Your not liking an answer does not constitute my not providing one. You, on the other hand have yet to answer mine. This can’t be characterized as anything but a lie. All you cited was the opinion of positive atheists, not fundamentalists themselves. In a later post you mentioned the opinion of one board member who was a fundamentalist. You provided no evidence that fundamentalists _in general_ considered the term highly offensive, which is what I asked for. > [@](#): > > Context? > > . . . . > > Would you care to explain how, in those contexts, a person might not be offended or how “fundie” is not the rhetorical equivalent of “raghead”? My point is that it is context that makes a term offensive, not the term itself. The fact that you might find contexts in which a term is offensive does not mean that the term by itself is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/122 "2004-06-01T09:57:44Z")
You know, I’ve gotten accused of “watering down the Gospel” and saying anything to seek popularity on a fairly regular business by Fundamentalist Christians. Some of them have also implied that I am not a true Christian or accused me of not reading the Bible because I disagree with them on certain issues. I am offended by those remarks. The implication that I am not a Christian is particularly offensive when it comes from someone who believes that only Christians go to heaven because it is, in effect, telling me to go to hell. Nevertheless, I never want to see the phrase “watering down the Gospel” listed as hate speech. For that matter, the only time I’ve seen the phrase “liberal Christian” used, it’s had a derogatory tone. Is that also hate speech? This is also uncharitable and unChristian of me, but given what some fundamentalist Christians have said of me and those I love, I have a hard time being sympathetic. As recently as a month ago, I tried to explain gently and in a Christian fashion why the first two accusations do offend me. In return, I got more insults. This thread to me sounds like a bit of “We can insult you, but you can’t insult us.” I’m sorry, but I lived with that for 13 years. I’m not going to put up with it any more. Get over it, Lib, CJ ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/123 "2004-06-01T10:36:53Z")
> [@Dio](#): > > There is no genetic component to hating gay people or to thinking the earth is 6000 years old. I agree with that, but as I proved in the OP, not all fundamentalists hate gay people. In fact, no one has established that a majority of them do, or even that _any_ of them do. It might well be that fundamentalist Christians abhor the likes of Fred Phelps. The term “fundie” is an intellectually lazy dismissal of views that are not as simplistic as hating gay people or thinking the earth is 6,000 years old. > [@](#): > > No one uses “fundie” simply for those who have faith, and theistic belief per se is usually not ridiculed or demeaned around here. That’s right. They use it for those who have a _particular_ faith, or more precisely, those who hold a particular faith that the taunter has caricatured into something he believes to be deserving of derision. > [@Apos](#): > > But I doubt anyone can establish such a point, and VSR’s research doesn’t really have anything to add on the subject. Actually, I did establish the point. No matter whether it is limbic system activity that compels belief in God or God Who compels limbic system activity, faith is not necessarily a choice. > [@Colibri](#): > > This can’t be characterized as anything but a lie. All you cited was the opinion of positive atheists, not fundamentalists themselves. In a later post you mentioned the opinion of one board member who was a fundamentalist. You provided no evidence that fundamentalists in general considered the term highly offensive, which is what I asked for. Well, you asked for evidence that fundamentalists in general were highly offended by the slur “fundie”. I’m sure you did not expect a published poll as a response since you’re not stupid. In searching for evidence, I did in fact look for a poll because I’m not as smart as you. Since I couldn’t find a poll, I looked for _some evidence_. What I found was that an organization that prides itself on “truthfulness as the highest ethic” and that believes “[h]allucinations and illusions are not facts useful for scientific investigation”. It is an organization that is as diametrically opposed to fundamentalism as is humanly possible. I believe that its recognition of “fundie” as a pejorative term qualifies as some evidence that in their experience, they have found it to be generally highly offensive, so much so that they refuse to publish letters that contain the term. That line of reasoning ain’t rocket science. The hysterical dismissal of it as a “lie” is just… bizarre. > [@](#): > > My point is that it is context that makes a term offensive, not the term itself. The fact that you might find contexts in which a term is offensive does not mean that the term by itself is offensive. I certainly agree with that; however, that is not what is happening here. It is in fact the case that the overwhelming number of contexts is offensive. And I think you know that. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/124 "2004-06-01T10:40:21Z")
> [@CJ](#): > > Get over it, Lib For what it might be worth, CJ, you could not have hurt my feelings more. Why didn’t you just call me and tell me to go to hell? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/125 "2004-06-01T11:02:40Z")
Because unlike the fundamentalist Christians you are so ardently defending, I don’t believe I have that privilege. I’ve had a couple of very stressful months recently. Among the more painful things I’ve had to face was the end of a friendship with someone on this board which wound up in insults. I have tried to like and respect fundamentalist Christians; there are some who I do like and respect. On the other hand, the more I’ve dealt with them on-line, the harder it is to do so. As I type, a houseguest of mine is sleeping. I’ve taken him in for a bit, just as he and his wife took me many times in the past. He’s a Wiccan. The type of Christian we’re discussing wouldn’t hesitate to condemn him to an eternity of suffering because of his religion. Since this is the couple who went from Fundamentalist Christianity to Atheism to Wicca, I can’t see him going back to Christianity, much as we enjoy discussing religion. Another old and treasured friend of mine was in town last week looking after his parents. He’s gay. He and his partner have been together for over 10 years now and it’s as good a marriage as any I’ve seen. He’s one of the finest people I’ve seen. The type of person we’re discussing would nevertheless regard him as inherently immoral because of one aspect of who he is. When someone who believes in the reality of eternal suffering makes a point of condemning whole classes of people to that fate, I’m afraid I do see it as cruel and hateful. The first friend I mentioned isn’t going to become Christian; the second friend isn’t going to become straight. For that matter, I’m not going to become a Biblical literalist or become a born again Christian in the “Road to Damascus” sense. I’ve had a taste or two of hardcore soul suffering in my life. I would not wish that on anyone. It goes against my Christian faith. Excuse me. I’ve wandered from the OP. To get back to it, if someone who believes in eternal suffering isn’t uttering hate speech when they say a person or a group of people is condemned to it, I don’t see how the term “fundie” which has rather less damaging implications can be. I don’t like the notion that they can insult us but they object when we insult them. CJ ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/126 "2004-06-01T11:11:55Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Excuse me. I’ve wandered from the OP. To get back to it, if someone who believes in eternal suffering isn’t uttering hate speech when they say a person or a group of people is condemned to it, I don’t see how the term “fundie” which has rather less damaging implications can be. I don’t like the notion that they can insult us but they object when we insult them. > > CJ Nor do I like the idea that “fundie” and “faggot” are both equal in connotation as “hate speech.” That **Lib** thinks that fundamentalists are being “persecuted” when they are are called on their vicious rhetoric only speaks for the depth of the delusional state he has fallen into. (sorry for the quotation marks, folks, but they seem to come up in a **Lib** thread) “Fundie” ain’t hate speech; to call it so is to render language into jabberwocky, because given the right context, any word can be called hate speech in **Lib** ’s definition. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/127 "2004-06-01T11:14:35Z")
CJ, not all fundamentalists believe that gays are condemned to eternal suffering. That’s why I gave the link in the OP to prove exactly that. Did you look at it? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/128 "2004-06-01T11:17:26Z")
> [@Gobear](#): > > “Fundie” ain’t hate speech; to call it so is to render language into jabberwocky, because given the right context, any word can be called hate speech in Lib’s definition. That could be said of any term. Blacks call each other “nigger”. Gays call each other “queer”. Indians call each other “tonto”. But when a fundamentalist calls you queer and you call him fundie, both of you intend to offend each other. And on SDMB, “fundie” is almost exclusively contextually derisive. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/129 "2004-06-01T12:07:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > And to clarify, some Spanish-speakers find the term _hispanic_ offensive. Is it hate speech to use this word? Really? I did NOT know that. Why? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/130 "2004-06-01T13:36:31Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > When someone who believes in the reality of eternal suffering makes a point of condemning whole classes of people to that fate, I’m afraid I do see it as cruel and hateful. As someone who was raised in the “reality of eternal suffering” and spent most of his life in that reality, I object strenuously your characterization of fundamentalists in general as cruel and hateful. Rather, I see them as proactive in rescuing as much of humanity and especially there loved ones from a fate worse than death. While many of us have no time or resources to help others, many fundamentalists invest a good amount of time andf resources to warn others of a terrible fate that awaits them. Some of them even try “tough love” ,shunning, etc that can easily be described as cruel but deemed neccessary to save that soul or souls. **Vanilla** is such a person, I believe, and it hurts to see the interaction between you two Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/131 "2004-06-01T13:43:54Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Really? I did NOT know that. Why? > [@](#): > > nisobar writes: > Mexicans are NOT Hispanic; they are indigenous, they are Latin, but they are NOT … > Hispanic. Please, people, remember: Hispanics are people ethnically related to people of the Caribbean islands which were known as Hispaniola when it was part of Spain, like Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, etc. Please learn your geography/history. > > Mexico was part of Spain, but was never part of the region referred to as Hispaniola, and was never totally subjugated to Spanish rule, despite what the Spanish may have thought. > > Thank you. > > * * * > > Neurotik and others: > Hilariously, you’re utterly wrong. > > It actually comes from the word Hispania (Spain), which derives from the Latin Hispanicus. Hispanic refers to anything of the language, culture or folks with Spanish descent. [http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/pofools.adp](http://fathom.org/teemingmillions/pofools.adp) ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/132 "2004-06-01T13:44:29Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > While many of us have no time or resources to help others, many fundamentalists invest a good amount of time andf resources to warn others of a terrible fate that awaits them. Some of them even try “tough love” ,shunning, etc that can easily be described as cruel but deemed neccessary to save that soul or souls. I believe that the correct term for you people is “assholes”. “Fundie assholes” serves to distinguish you from other types of assholes. Sure you may find it offensive. But it ain’t hate speech. It’s simply descriptive. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/133 "2004-06-01T14:19:43Z")
So, you differentiate an aborignal asshole from other assholes by appending “appo” to it, and call it simply descriptive? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/134 "2004-06-01T14:47:46Z")
Other words to ban after “fundie”: - Pinko - Commie - Peacenik - John Bircher - Flake (when applied to pagans) - Tree-hugger - Pro-abortion - Anti-choice Can we add to this list? I’d like it to be comprehensive, please. Alternatively, we can distinguish between perjoratives applied to folks for their systems of beliefs and actions, and perjoratives applied to folks for inherent characteristics. Despite what some folks may draw from some experimental neurological results, I’d say this is a fair distinction to draw. I’ve got little problem with perjoratives in the first category (well, they’re rude, but Miss Manners is already giving these boards a pass), but the second category is highly offensive. In any case, **Lib** , when you characterized one post as calling fundies “pornographers,” you lied. As I’ve said before, I consider dishonesty to be fatal to good debate; as such, you have lost your credibility on this issue. While others may have something interesting to say on the subject, I do not think you do. You instead need to work on building your credibility up by being scrupulously honest. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/135 "2004-06-01T14:49:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > So, you differentiate an aborignal asshole from other assholes by appending “appo” to it, and call it simply descriptive? Let’s try it, shall we? “Asshole appo”. Doesn’t mean much to me, probably doesn’t mean much to anyone else. But you’re making fundamental mistake there, apart from the two obvious and silly ones. The deliberately offensive word is “asshole”, not “fundie”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/136 "2004-06-01T15:07:05Z")
> [@Daniel](#): > > In any case, Lib, when you characterized one post as calling fundies “pornographers,” you lied. Excuse me? In the phrase “fundie porn”, is porn not short for pornography? As far as I’m concerned, whoever will rationalize otherwise is the liar. > [@Desmo](#): > > The deliberately offensive word is “asshole”, not “fundie”. I don’t believe you. In fact, you called Grienspace a “fundie” precisely because you knew it would offend. And that puts it right in line with practically every usage of the term in SDMB history. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/137 "2004-06-01T15:18:49Z")
Not that it matters, but I am a Christian fundamentalist and am offended by the term “fundie”. It has been shown quite clearly that it is rarely if ever used in a postive light. It speaks against those who choose to use it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/138 "2004-06-01T15:20:49Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Excuse me? In the phrase “fundie porn”, is porn not short for pornography? As far as I’m concerned, whoever will rationalize otherwise is the liar. When I say that you’ve got nothing interesting to add to the debate, responding, “I know you are, but what am I?” doesn’t disprove my point. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/139 "2004-06-01T15:28:10Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Excuse me? In the phrase “fundie porn”, is porn not short for pornography? As far as I’m concerned, whoever will rationalize otherwise is the liar. You really are an idiot. If you saw someone reading a Playboy magazine, do you think that could accurately call them a “pornographer”? Fucking moron. > [@Liberal](#): > > I don’t believe you. In fact, you called Grienspace a “fundie” precisely because you knew it would offend. And that puts it right in line with practically every usage of the term in SDMB history. You really are behaving too stupidly for words. It’s as if I called you a “stupid fucking asshole from America”, and you objected that you found the term “America” offensive. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709/140 "2004-06-01T15:37:02Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > Not that it matters, but I am a Christian fundamentalist and am offended by the term “fundie”. It has been shown quite clearly that it is rarely if ever used in a postive light. It speaks against those who choose to use it. Nonsense. “Fundie” may not be used in a positive light, but there is no positive way to describe a belief system as hateful and negative as Christian fundamentalism. You people push anti-gay legislation and then cry foul when you get called on it. You people try to mandate the taxpayer-funded teaching of your religious dogma under the guise of “intelligent design” classes. You people have stymied genetic research in this country that could help innumerable people live longer, healthier lives. You people try to keep other people from reading books you don’t like and movies you disapprove of. The reason “fundie” sounds negative is because being a fundie is a negative trait. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-fundie-hate-speech/247709.md?page=8)