# Why isn't German more widely spoken in the US as a mother tongue? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 29, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072 "2011-09-29T21:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/21 "2011-09-30T08:13:36Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The three largest ethnic groups in the U.S. are, in the following order: > > 1. German-Americans > 2. Irish-Americans > 3. English-Americans > . > . > . [**Norm MacDonald**] Or so the Germans would have us believe! [**/Norm MacDonald**] ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/22 "2011-09-30T10:38:03Z")
Hynagogic Jerk writes: \> I would assume that there are more Americans of English ancestry than \> Americans of German ancestry. Every survey that I’ve seen has said that there are more Americans of German ancestry than those of Irish ancestry, and more Americans of Irish ancestry than those of English ancestry. Do you have any statistics that say otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/23 "2011-09-30T19:10:32Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Every survey that I’ve seen has said that there are more Americans of German ancestry than those of Irish ancestry, and more Americans of Irish ancestry than those of English ancestry. Do you have any statistics that say otherwise? No, I have no statistics that say otherwise, but see **kenobi 65** ’s response. And even if multiple responses are allowed, I’d imagine that Americans would mostly mention their “most interesting” or more standout ethnic background, even if it’s only a minor part of their ethnic mixture. See how many black people in the US are black despite only having a minority of their ethnic heritage be African. English people have been in the US in large numbers for a lot longer than German people, so I’d assume they’re the ones who make the bulk of the American genetic background. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/24 "2011-09-30T19:42:49Z")
Curiously the number of those identifying as English-American has nearly halved since the 1980 census. From 49 million to 27 million in 2009. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/25 "2011-09-30T20:32:26Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Although not all, maybe not even a majority of Irish migrants to the US were Irish speakers, the lacuna of that language in most of North America, even in the past, is an issue for another thread. My father’s parents came over from East Galway about the turn of the century (not the most recent one). Census records indicate they knew English & Irish but my father knew only English. (I think–he died when I was quite young & we were brought up by my mother’s people down in Texas.) The Handbook of Texas has quite a bit to say about the numerous & influential [German Texans](http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/png02). The World Wars & tapering off of immigration contributed to the loss of the German language. > [@](#): > > German-language schools also went into decline. In the early 1950s the thriving German-language press, vital to cultural survival in a literate society, fell silent, signaling the end of an era. But there are still [Oktoberfests](http://www.oktoberfestinfbg.com/) here. And the music played by the German & other Central European immigrants influenced [Tejano music](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/benson/border/arhoolie2/raices.html). ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/26 "2011-09-30T22:12:35Z")
The Katzenjammer Kids [still](http://kingfeatures.com/comics/comics-a-z/?id=Katzenjammer_Kids) have German accents. Apparently they were [temporarily](http://www.toonopedia.com/katzen.htm) de-Germanized during WWI, though. ---
**Author:** ![No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_umlaut_for_U)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/27 "2011-10-01T00:59:23Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > Two big reasons from a guy from an area with a strong German heritage. > > Reason one: A generalized hostility toward the German language during and just after WWI. There were state laws prohibiting use of German and other foreign languages in public, including church services which raised hob in the German, Norwegian and Danish Lutheran congregations through out the Upper Midwest. The Iowa Supreme Court approved the prohibition but the US Supreme Court found it to be a First Amendment violation. That did nothing to reduce the hostility toward the language of the Huns, the sermons of Martin Luther notwithstanding. > > Reason two: Public education in English Totally agreeing here. One of the big family legends is, “From here on, we all speak English,” dating from WWI. From what I’ve been told, the prejudice was horrible then, and WWII hostility paled by comparison. The last remnants of German culture passed down were foods. I had to learn German in school. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/28 "2011-10-01T02:18:37Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Curiously the number of those identifying as English-American has nearly halved since the 1980 census. From 49 million to 27 million in 2009. Which is a reason to distrust “surveys” as they serve no scientific purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/29 "2011-10-01T02:50:11Z")
My Grandfather grew up speaking German at home. Then when he was around 5, which I guess was close to the WWI anti-german hysteria, or possibly just after, they decided they’d speak english at home as well as outside the home. He never had an accent, but he’d sometimes use german words for things–he’d always say “kaffeekuchen” instead of coffeecake, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/30 "2011-10-01T14:04:14Z")
Hynogogic Jerk writes: \> English people have been in the US in large numbers for a lot longer than \> German people, so I’d assume they’re the ones who make the bulk of the \> American genetic background. Well, no. German immigration to (what’s now) the U.S. started in the early 1600’s. There were a whole lot of such immigrants between 1680 and 1770. So German people have been coming to the U.S. nearly as long as English people, and there have presumably been more German immigrants than English ones: > **[German Americans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American)** > > 14,323,028 (4.3%) German alone > German Americans (German: Deutschamerikaner, pronounced \[ˈdɔʏtʃʔameʁɪˌkaːnɐ\]) are Americans who have full or partial German ancestry. According to the Academy for Cultural Diplomacy, "German-Americans make up the largest self-reported ancestry group within the United States accounting for roughly 49 million people and approximately 17% of the population of the US." This is an increase from 2010 when it was 45.7 million people. German Americans account for about ... Interestingly, there’s a list of the 25 towns in the U.S. with the highest proportion of people with German ancestry. A lot of them are near where I grew up in Ohio, I notice. There’s also a list of the proportion of people with German ancestry for each state. You can see that there are still a lot of states in the middle of the U.S. with a very high percentage (but not a majority) of German-Americans. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/31 "2011-10-01T14:30:31Z")
I suppose one advantage was that germans looked like regular white people; so they were less likely to be ghetto-ized and discriminated against like some of the other dang furriners who looked funny or dressed funny or worshipped funny. That probably aided in assimilation. I worked with a fellow once who had a strong german accent. His take on assimilation was to point out he was “a member of an audible minority.” I had heard in Canada that in a lot of high schools German was one of the language options up until WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/32 "2011-10-01T15:18:07Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Of course, you mostly don’t see great-grandkids of Mexican immigrants because most of them haven’t been here long enough. Hispanics are just the latest wave of immigrants. In the US, we’ve always had immigrants in waves - and every new wave is considered different and undesirable compared to the last wave. Every new wave is criticized for not joining in the melting pot. Given 100 years, we come full circle and decide that it’s cool. The Irish are a perfect example. What the freak? We were here first. :smack: You are the immigrants. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/33 "2011-10-01T15:45:23Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > Reason one: A generalized hostility toward the German language during and just after WWI. There were state laws prohibiting use of German and other foreign languages in public, including church services which raised hob in the German, Norwegian and Danish Lutheran congregations through out the Upper Midwest. The Iowa Supreme Court approved the prohibition but the US Supreme Court found it to be a First Amendment violation. That did nothing to reduce the hostility toward the language of the Huns, the sermons of Martin Luther notwithstanding. My great-grandfather, 2nd generation German-American, pastored to Missouri Synod congregations in southwest Iowa. As late as the 1940s, my dad remembers, my ggf would preach for an hour in English _ **and** an hour in German_ every Sunday…and play a violin solo in between. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/34 "2011-10-01T16:34:41Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The three largest ethnic groups in the U.S. are, in the following order: > > 1. German-Americans > 2. Irish-Americans > 3. English-Americans Nitpick: I don’t know how accurate such estimates can be, but if the Scotch-Irish are excluded from Irish, might Irish not fall below English? Didn’t Scotch-Irish in America exceed Catholic Irish before the Great Famine? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/35 "2011-10-01T16:39:46Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > It wasn’t even “both world wars”, it was primarily World War I. While German was declining before then, there were still private (mostly parochial) schools that taught some subjects in German, there were German-speaking churches, German newspapers, German magazines, German book publishers, and so on. But the same patriotic fever/lunacy that led some people to call sauerkraut “liberty cabbage” led some Webers and Müllers to change their names to Weaver and Miller lest someone think they were less than 100% loyal, and the use of German in public places took a nosedive. Wasnt the hostility to German already there before WW1? I remember something about making English the official language of the US at the end of the XIXth century for fear that German would prevail over English. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/36 "2011-10-01T16:54:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Nitpick: I don’t know how accurate such estimates can be, but if the Scotch-Irish are excluded from Irish, might Irish not fall below English? Didn’t Scotch-Irish in America exceed Catholic Irish before the Great Famine? As per the stats on [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American) even if you exclude the self-identified Scots-Irish, Irish Americans are still a bigger self-identified group than English Americans. But presumably a lot of Americans who put down just “American” as their ethnicity are of old English-American and Scots-Irish stock. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/37 "2011-10-01T17:21:00Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I suppose one advantage was that germans looked like regular white people; so they were less likely to be ghetto-ized and discriminated against like some of the other dang furriners who looked funny or dressed funny or worshipped funny. That probably aided in assimilation. I worked with a fellow once who had a strong german accent. His take on assimilation was to point out he was “a member of an audible minority.” > > I had heard in Canada that in a lot of high schools German was one of the language options up until WWII. In the US German is a standard language offered in high school. The “normal” modern languages for a high school to offer are Spanish, French, and German. Other languages might be offered depending on what teachers are available and/or what is popular in the area. In NJ, for example, you might find Italian offered (very high number of people with Italian ancestry there). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/38 "2011-10-01T19:10:37Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > So German people have been coming to the U.S. nearly as long as English people, and there have presumably been more German immigrants than English ones Why would you presume that, given that we were English colonies for over 170 years? I suspect self-reporting is pretty useless in establishing ancestry. For one thing, as noted by other posters, English ancestry is less “interesting,” and people are apt to chose an ancestry that is more romantic or interesting, even if it comprises a minority of their heritage. For another thing, English ancestry is more likely to be lost in antiquity, since the English have been here so long. People are often simply not aware of their English ancestors, whereas they may be aware of ancestors from other nations who arrived more recently. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/39 "2011-10-01T21:04:12Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > But presumably a lot of Americans who put down just “American” as their ethnicity are of old English-American and Scots-Irish stock. Yes, and the fact that the Scotch-Irish arrived earlier than the Catholics makes it more likely they would identify as just “American.” And, also according to Wikipedia (and as I should have clarified in earlier post ☹ ), some Scots-Irish may have ended up identifying selves as “Irish.” Teddy Roosevelt was impressed with the Scotch-Irish leading the way Westward in the 18th century. My own pursuit of genealogy led to an appreciation of this: my Presbyterian ancestors crossed the Appalachian Mountains, breeding like rabbits, and rafted down the Ohio River. (On a side note, “Scots-Irish” seems more correct than “Scotch-Irish” – Scotch being an adjective for whiskey, not people 😃 – but the latter form seems standard in America.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072/40 "2011-10-01T21:25:43Z")
Does anyone think that English is easier to pick up for German speakers than other languages might be? I think the two wars against Germany were a big factor. There’s also going to be some discrepancy between the concept of German-American and the actual country of origin and language spoken. Germany as a country is a modern construct that encompasses only a part of the German speaking region of Europe, and there are the various dialects, and the broader Germanic languages. I’ll also note that everyone on earth speaks and understands some English. If they seem not to, you just have to shout and gesticulate until they stop feigning ignorance 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-german-more-widely-spoken-in-the-us-as-a-mother-tongue/598072.md?page=3)