# Why isn't Hillary clinton in jail? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125 "2015-04-20T16:26:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/321 "2015-04-23T15:02:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How does that make Bush immoral?.. > > You have the historical awareness of a tree frog, … The war was vastly immoral. Even a cretin like you might understand that. If your argument is that Bush was so out-of-touch he didn’t know he was being manipulated by evil men, then I would argue _that it was immoral for GWB, if he was self-aware enough to realize how incompetent he was, to aspire to the Presidency_. You consistently vomit invective like “tree frog” and accuse _me_ of badmouthing _you_? Ha! ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/322 "2015-04-23T15:08:06Z")
it is good to see the examples on the left of the blindly ideological behaving like their confreres of the right in the same thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/323 "2015-04-23T15:27:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I disagree with **septimus**. I don’t think **Bricker** is an “ignorant cretin”, and I oppose any hyperbolic (or other) attempts at disallowing his vote. If you’re a liberal, then that’s evidence to the contrary. It looks like one liberal, on a board dominated by liberals, disagrees with septimus. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/324 "2015-04-23T15:29:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The war was vastly immoral. Even a cretin like you might understand that. If your argument is that Bush was so out-of-touch he didn’t know he was being manipulated by evil men, then I would argue _that it was immoral for GWB, if he was self-aware enough to realize how incompetent he was, to aspire to the Presidency_. I don’t agree that Bush was aware of his limitations. And I think it’s self-evident that you’re bad-mouthing me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/325 "2015-04-23T15:33:12Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Because I was addressing the specific point in your post I disagreed with, although you may have noticed my characterization of his claim as “invective” which would be an odd way of indicating agreement with him. > > But I’ll duly note the insinuation used to deflect attention from my own point. Sure, sure – except that his post preceded mine, and yet it didn’t stir you to post the specific point you disagreed with in his. And I’ll note that for a second time you haven’t disagreed: you say ‘invective’ is an odd way to indicate agreement, but in fact neither does it indicate disagreement. Invective simply means that it’s insulting, and for you to correctly call it insulting doesn’t mean you either agree or disagree with its substance. Be honest here: you were more interested in posting your disagreement with my point than with his, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/326 "2015-04-23T17:30:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Was it, though? I grant that each poster’s support was small, but in aggregate their voice led to very undeserved consequences for the fraternity and UVA itself. So let’s add up all those consequences, multiply by a thousand, and express the result in Drone Strike Equivalency units, or DSEs. I estimate… zero. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/327 "2015-04-24T00:34:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It looks like one liberal, on a board dominated by liberals, disagrees with septimus. One liberal…disagreeing with one liberal. I’m not sure how you can come to any conclusions on either part, particularly since you have no idea how many liberals are even reading this thread. I also disagree with **septimus**. There’s two. If you’re willing to tar all liberals based on one hyperbolic insult, then two contrary opinions should send your opinion flying the opposite direction. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/328 "2015-04-24T01:17:30Z")
> [@andros](#): > > One liberal…disagreeing with one liberal. I’m not sure how you can come to any conclusions on either part, particularly since you have no idea how many liberals are even reading this thread. > > I also disagree with **septimus**. There’s two. If you’re willing to tar all liberals based on one hyperbolic insult, then two contrary opinions should send your opinion flying the opposite direction. I’m not personally all that confident in Bricker’s ability to correctly identify liberals, at least in any meaningful use of the label. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/329 "2015-04-24T01:44:57Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I also disagree with **septimus**. There’s two. If you’re willing to tar all liberals based on one hyperbolic insult, then two contrary opinions should send your opinion flying the opposite direction. Wait, what are we being accused of now? Is it anything important, like liking raisins or something? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/330 "2015-04-24T02:01:25Z")
I hate raisins. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/331 "2015-04-24T02:09:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’d say it can…but it doesn’t always. > > There’s a dictum, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.” > > But I think ignorance of the consequences of one’s actions can sometimes be an excuse. > > Example: I go out and throw a big heavy box of trash into the dumpster. I’ve done this some hundreds of times. But this one time…there was a dorky neighbor kid playing in the dumpster. I could have looked first before heaving the box in, and if I had, the kid wouldn’t have been injured. Was I negligent? It isn’t easy to say; there are various levels of expectations. Kids aren’t supposed to play in dumpsters…but sometimes they do. I’ve thrown heavy trash in there a hundred times…but this one time was different. … > > Help me out here: give an example of somebody committing an immoral act, who is honestly unaware of committing an immoral act? I think the problem is _somewhat_ easier than you frame it. I don’t think there’s a _reasonable expectation_ of going on your tiptoes and peaking before chucking in load of trash. Meaning, you’ve practiced _due diligence_. Now morally speaking if you had knowledge that the kid tended to play in the dumpster, that might be different. Or if you were throwing away a desk and you knew that kids played in the area _maybe_. Yes there remain shades of grey, but I don’t think the problem is as knotty as you indicate. ## The notion of bad faith is a little different, as it involves lying to oneself. There’s the notion of believing something in contrast to merely believing that one believes something: the latter can be gleened via a contrast with actions and avowals. A variant of that might be _[special pleading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading)_. An example might be someone propping up one of their misdeeds by claiming that they believed in something dubious, improbable or implicitly ignored not uncommon circumstances. You can’t arrive at work exactly on time, then blame traffic when you are late. I also disagree with septimus. Then again, I figure septimus disagrees with septimus: that’s what hyperbole involves after all. So by my reckoning liberal support for Bricker’s right to vote reaches 100%. _Should_ someone with Bricker’s faculties and temperament vote? That’s a separate matter. What’s your opinion Bricker? ::straight face:: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/332 "2015-04-24T02:16:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I hate raisins. Good man. Now, that Measure for Measure chappy who posted after you obviously loves raisins or else he would have disavowed them. Let’s burn him! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/333 "2015-04-24T02:28:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > . . . The notion of bad faith is a little different, as it involves lying to oneself. There’s the notion of believing something in contrast to merely believing that one believes something: the latter can be gleened via a contrast with actions and avowals. A variant of that might be _[special pleading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading)_. An example might be someone propping up one of their misdeeds by claiming that they believed in something dubious, improbable or implicitly ignored not uncommon circumstances. You can’t arrive at work exactly on time, then blame traffic when you are late. . . . Agreement… According to Jonathan Glover, in his book Causing Death and Saving Lives, noted an early epoch in the history of the Christian Church, when a “lie” could be justified as “truth” by the implementation of a secret extenuating reservation. e.g., if asked, “Did you steal money from the pension fund?” a man might answer “No,” but is thinking in his mind, “Not today, I didn’t.” Obviously, this can allow just about any grossly false statement to become “true” in the sharpest legalistic sense. It’s a theory of truth that is frowned upon these days (although it retains its popularity with the very, very young.) (Kid lying on walkway, with his feet inside the door. “You said not to set one foot outside today. And I didn’t!”) These kinds of deceits don’t negate “intention.” If anything, they demonstrate it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/334 "2015-04-24T02:33:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suppose I am a strange duck. > > But I can’t see how that particular response was remotely insulting. You suggested that a parent leaving a child in a hot car was an example of immorality-by-negligence, and I replied that even that example was unclear; I offered an in-depth article on the phenomenon which supported the idea that such instances were obviously tragic but not cases where the parent acted immorally. > > I can’t see the slightest cause you’d have for insult in that exchange. I was wrong, and apologize. I wrongly took “it’s not the hundredth instance _for that parent_” as insulting, for being obvious. I see now that wasn’t how you meant it. My bad, sorry. (Also, of course, it’s damned foolish of me to gripe about anyone’s insulting tone…in the goddam BBQ Pit! Well, duh! That’s what we do here! Still, it’s best to try to keep the threads insulated from each other. I’ll call you beastly names in one thread…and attempt to treat honorably with you in another. Life is weird!) Anyway, I think the issue of intent in immorality is a damn fascinating one, and I find it vaguely haunting that I mostly agree with you on it! ETA: Have I mentioned recently how much I admire your taste in music? We should converse more often in Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/335 "2015-04-24T04:09:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Help me out here: give an example of somebody committing an immoral act, who is honestly unaware of committing an immoral act? What about religious nuts who commit immoral acts but believe they are doing God’s will? You might say, “Denial != unaware”. Does it matter if a lot of people (the perps especially) will not accept certain kinds of religious motivation as a form of denial? Say GOP POTUS candidate _x_ really believes the Earth is 6000 years old, despite years of being presented with solid scientific evidence to the contrary. Candidate _x_ is elected POTUS, acts on religious belief to ignore climate change on a policy level; world subsequently turns to shit as a result. Is that guy innocent? Does it matter that a lot of the people who are fucked in this scenario will not accept his innocence, should the legal/logical answer turn out to be solidly “yes”? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/336 "2015-04-24T05:01:43Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > What about religious nuts who commit immoral acts but believe they are doing God’s will? > > You might say, “Denial != unaware”. Does it matter if a lot of people (the perps especially) will not accept certain kinds of religious motivation as a form of denial? Well, yeah, that gets tricky. You might have to do some kind of deep psychoanalysis to figure out at what level they are aware of their wicked motivations. For instance, some of the people who hunted witches in the sixteenth century really believed that witches were Satanic, and dangerous, and a threat. But some were greedy bastards grabbing up money from the people they imprisoned. And some were right in between, and might not even have been aware of their “real” motivations. Denial can also come in the form of unawareness. Many racists are not actually aware that they are racists; for them, denial is in the form of self-deception. I want to preserve some degree of leniency for the people who honestly don’t know they’re wicked. But it’s a sliding scale, a spectrum, and self-deceit is rarely zero per cent or one hundred per cent. It’s usually subtle enough to be hard to detect. And…what about people who have been taught, all their lives, that certain evil things are “good.” People who are racist…because papa told them all about how bad blacks are. To some degree, they should have questioned their postulates and examined their beliefs. But that’s hard to do. It’s a human failing to continue to believe what one has always believed. Where does the “due diligence” kick in? This is why education is so important. Once a person has been taught, officially, “No, racism is not okay,” then their “plausible deniability” is punctured. (Just as the people who have seen TV public service announcements about not leaving kids in parked cars no longer have the excuse of ignorance.) (Amusingly, this parallels "They were exposed to the Bible, so now they are no longer ignorant pagans, and are liable to Hell for not believing.) ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/337 "2015-04-24T05:32:02Z")
So… you’re saying I’m more right than Bricker? Woot! 😃 > [@Trinopus](#): > > This is why education is so important. Once a person has been taught, officially, “No, racism is not okay,” then their “plausible deniability” is punctured. You sound dangerously close to proposing that we redact American Exceptionalism from our school curriculum. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/338 "2015-04-24T05:35:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And…what about people who have been taught, all their lives, that certain evil things are “good.” People who are racist…because papa told them all about how bad blacks are. To some degree, they should have questioned their postulates and examined their beliefs. But that’s hard to do. It’s a human failing to continue to believe what one has always believed. Where does the “due diligence” kick in? Well, there’s Mark Twain’s Huck Finn. Huck honestly thought he was wicked for helping Jim escape, but he did it anyway. Generally speaking though, in the tougher cases you need to get more granular. Some circumspection is called for before judging another age or another part of the world. That done, I am willing to make such judgments. Meaning you can look at the spectrum of opinions that people were exposed to, laud those whose choices tended to reduce suffering and hold the bastards in contempt. Calibrate your informed judgment as applicable, withholding it as appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/339 "2015-04-24T05:49:50Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > So… you’re saying I’m more right than Bricker? Woot! 😃 I wouldn’t touch a straight line like that for a free weekend in Pismo Beach. > [@](#): > > You sound dangerously close to proposing that we redact American Exceptionalism from our school curriculum. Not only yeah, but hell yeah! > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Well, there’s Mark Twain’s Huck Finn. Huck honestly thought he was wicked for helping Jim escape, but he did it anyway. This is one of those things where there were two different (and incompatible) “right things to do.” He was wicked for helping Jim escape…but he would have been wickeder not to. This is the sort of thing that leads to fun moral paradoxes, and Utility Monsters, and other ugly problems. (“Do you push the one guy in front of the moving train, if that’s the only way to save ten other people?”) > [@](#): > > Generally speaking though, in the tougher cases you need to get more granular. Some circumspection is called for before judging another age or another part of the world. That done, I am willing to make such judgments. Meaning you can look at the spectrum of opinions that people were exposed to, laud those whose choices tended to reduce suffering and hold the bastards in contempt. Calibrate your informed judgment as applicable, withholding it as appropriate. I think…I don’t fully understand what you’re saying here. But, yeah: “I am willing to make such judgments.” Agreed. We pretty much have to. And, yeah, “Calibrate your informed judgment as applicable.” We try to do the best we can, knowing we’ll screw up now and then. But “not acting” is also a form of acting. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125/340 "2015-04-24T06:22:09Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Then again, I figure septimus disagrees with septimus: that’s what hyperbole involves after all. Yes, I disagree with **septimus** ’ excessive invective in this thread. 🆒 And I don’t fully consider myself a liberal (though I’m sure I’m so classified in post-rational America). From my posts in GD I think I present as a relatively sober, rational-thinking left-of-center moderate. _But sanctimonious right-wingers irritate me greatly_. And (yes, I know this makes me very very childish) _ **when I’m treated to insults or contempt I tend to reciprocate ten-fold.** _ IMO, **Bricker** started it, treating me with disrespect first. I’d be willing to offer each other mutual apologies, and start afresh … though I’m afraid Bricker would remain a sanctimonious right-winger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-hillary-clinton-in-jail/718125.md?page=18)