# Why isn't "Sadie Hawkins" feminism a thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221 "2018-01-22T16:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![sbunny8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@sbunny8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sbunny8)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/41 "2018-01-25T19:35:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > We’ve had this discussion before a number of times on the SDMB. The consensus seems to be:\* “Although it would be logically feminist for women to initiate and ask men out in just the same way that men have traditionally asked women out, many feminist women opt not to do so because being the initiator is always riskier, more inconvenient, and more uncomfortable (putting oneself out there) than it is to be the one initiated to.”\* And yet, mathematical analysis of [The Stable Marriage Problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem) has shown that the opposite is true; the initiators end up with maximal happiness while the ones being initiated to end up with minimal happiness. Either there’s a logical reason why the mathematical model doesn’t quite match reality or we are basically kidding ourselves with a conveniently soothing myth. “Oh sure, men play the dominant role, but really the women like it that way.” uh huh. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/42 "2018-01-25T19:57:05Z")
> [@sbunny8](#): > > And yet, mathematical analysis of [The Stable Marriage Problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem) has shown that the opposite is true; the initiators end up with maximal happiness while the ones being initiated to end up with minimal happiness. Either there’s a logical reason why the mathematical model doesn’t quite match reality or we are basically kidding ourselves with a conveniently soothing myth. “Oh sure, men play the dominant role, but really the women like it that way.” uh huh. As far as human interaction goes, that’s a game theory problem not math, imho. I doubt it ends up with “maximal happiness” for initiators in real life. Unless you think every man out there is in the best relationship he could hope for. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/43 "2018-01-25T20:18:58Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Also above I see conflicting views on whether it is ok for a man to approach a woman he doesn’t know at a grocery store to strike up a conversation. I don’t see conflicting views, but an example of how to do it, and how not to do it, with a further Expansion on which non-grocery-store places are not okay. > [@](#): > > And that it is a bad idea at a bar. I watched a YouTube commentary from one US woman comparing experiences in America and Germany, and she said that in US, Singles go to bars expecting to find Partners, esp. one-night stands, whereas in Germany, friends go together to talk with each other. This means that a single woman in US bar is seen as “she wants to find a Partner” and thus likely chatted up by many (single) men, when she might just be there to Chat with her friend she hasn’t seen in weeks, and the bar is the only place open at this hour. Because it bothers many women to be constantly chatted up in bars when they don’t want to, many avoid bars. There’s the additional Problem that women in bars might not go alone, but with friends, because they are afraid somebody will slip something in their drink and take Advantage. In Addition, if you don’t want a one-night stand, why don’t you try to get to know the woman first - as friend - before moving onto “lets have sex”? > [@](#): > > In my daily life I do not percolate among bachelorettes. Is that a TV Show? (Percolate? Are you a gas, or a human? 😉 ) Do you mean “single women”? Do you personally know all the women you interact with are in a relationship? Because looking for rings is not a sure way… > [@](#): > > And if you say “a woman should be able to do X without a guy she doesn’t know trying to strike up a conversation” then I would agree with you in all cases. She should; but many don’t dare in case the guy turns out to be a jerk. There’s a difference between what’s fair/ right, and reality. > [@](#): > > I have decided at a bar is the least bad place. As said above, I would not recommend a bar. > [@](#): > > And I have a sense that if a woman meets you for the first time at a bar she holds it against you. I would guess because of the perception that single men go to bars only to pick up one-night stands, and a high Ratio of These types are jerks? If I were looking for a relationship with a guy, I would not frequent places where men looking for one-night stands are cruising. The usual recommendation is joining a Club (sports, Hobby)… then you meet many People, get to know them, you know you have at least one Thing in common… > [@](#): > > Perhaps I should reevaluate not approaching women elsewhere in light of the above comments. That would be good. As has been said: try to imagine Orcs, and what place/ what Approach would make you feel safe. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/44 "2018-01-25T20:20:19Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > I don’t believe this. What do you want: a sociological poll? Youtube stories from People who moved from America to here? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/45 "2018-01-25T20:21:27Z")
It’s been my experience that men assume a woman asking them out entails a presumption of sex in the first or second encounter. If she does the asking, it’s a “hot date” so to speak. And that was back in the 80’s and 90’s, when sex in the first three dates was unheard of. Now I’m given to understand that it’s the norm. I’ve often thought that Bujold’s concept of the [Betan Earrings](http://vorkosigan.wikia.com/wiki/Betan_Earrings) was an excellent one. From the link: > [@](#): > > _“The Betans seemed very good about keeping congruent to [their social signals from earrings]. Of course, they had so many choices. ‘Wearing a false signal was highly disapproved, socially. It screws it up for the rest of us,’ a Betan had once explained to her. The whole idea is to eliminate the weird guessing-games.” > ―Kareen reflects on Betan earrings[src]_ > > Earrings on Beta Colony were used to encode information about a person’s sexual availability and interests. These could be in both ears or only in one . . . ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/46 "2018-01-25T20:22:18Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What culture is this? Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/47 "2018-01-25T20:23:12Z")
I’m kind of curious myself. You said in your culture, it is no longer acceptable for men to hit on women. Perhaps you can explain what this means? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/48 "2018-01-25T20:23:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m wondering if **constanze** means something specific by men hitting on women. Some clarification here would definitely help! Hitting on = making an unwanted (often crass) advance towards a stranger I thought that was the AE usage? ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/49 "2018-01-25T20:26:43Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What exactly do you mean by “hitting on women?” When I was in 9th grade I asked Jennifer out to what would be my first high school dance and was rejected. Was I hitting on her? Yes. Was she afraid I was going to flip out and kill her? I don’t think so. In fact I don’t think any woman who has rejected me has been afraid I’d flip out and kill her. If she’s a classmate which you know, you’re not hitting on her, you’re asking her out. I mean the Situation so many US women have described (here and elsewhere): they’re in bar, a grocery store, or just Walking down the street, and a stranger tells them “you look hot” “want to come with me” or any similar. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/50 "2018-01-25T20:36:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m kind of curious myself. You said in your culture, it is no longer acceptable for men to hit on women. Perhaps you can explain what this means? It means that generally, a guy who walks up to a woman he doesn’t know and starts flirting with her/ saying Pick-up lines - whether at a bar or a grocery store - is seen as creep and socially not acceptable. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t men who still do that -there are always some segments who behave like trash. It may also be a General cultural difference - the whole idea of one-night-stand didn’t really gain traction even after the 60s sexual Revolution. Before the 60s, men followed the patriarchal Standard of dating a Girl, and then marrying her. After condoms, the pill and women being recognized as People, marriage started dropping away, and couples living “just together” slowly rose. But the experiences told by US women on the Internet are completly Alien to me - Walking on the street and being whistled at by construction workers? Strangers telling women to smile? Strangers talking to women at a bar? I’m not saying it will never ever happen here - but People will consider that low behaviour. Whistling construction workers might have been acceptable as a sign “she’s hot, so it’s a compliment” in the 50s, maybe, but not today. Strangers talking to us is generally rude, but wanting a one-night-stand? No, we want relationships. It’s similar to how in my culture, we don’t call People “friends” after talking to them for 2 hours. That’s acquaintance. Friends are deep Lasting relationships which take time to cultivate. (Apparently the dislike of German Girls to want one-night-stand is some disappointment to Young male US students going to night-clubs…) ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/51 "2018-01-25T20:39:22Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I’ve often thought that Bujold’s concept of the [Betan Earrings](http://vorkosigan.wikia.com/wiki/Betan_Earrings) was an excellent one. Yet to me, it sounds like unneccessary complication. Why do you Need markers, if women are equal and free and safe enough to just drink a coffee with a guy, and over months and months and months, getting to know each other, and either stopping at friendship, or going further towards partnership? It only makes sense if you Need a Signal right away, instead of getting to know People first, and once you know that you can talk with each other, and there’s enough trust, you can discuss things. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/52 "2018-01-25T20:46:37Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Yet to me, it sounds like unneccessary complication. Why do you Need markers, if women are equal and free and safe enough to just drink a coffee with a guy, and over months and months and months, getting to know each other, and either stopping at friendship, or going further towards partnership? How does a guy ask a girl out for coffee? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/53 "2018-01-25T20:50:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I was thinking of something similar, only using different symbols. If a woman is interested in acting a guy out, she could maybe indicate this by using the signal of opening her mouth and saying, “Hey, Chris, do you wanna catch a movie this weekend?” If she’s not interested in a guy making physical advances, she can say, “Hey, I’m not interested in making out, thanks.” If she wants physical activity, she opens her mouth to say, “Hey, wanna make out?” > > I see some real advantages to my proposal over new ring symbolism. Rings are expensive! Like I used to have to tell the Firebug, “use your words!” Words can be a very effective means of communication, with the flexibility to transmit a wide variety of messages. Positioning of rings, not so much. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/54 "2018-01-25T20:52:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How does a guy ask a girl out for coffee? “I’m going over to Starbucks. Wanna come with?” ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/55 "2018-01-25T21:06:20Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > “I’m going over to Starbucks. Wanna come with?” But we have learned that in Germany that would be considered too rude, unless you already know her. Viscious circle / Catch 22… Think about people who don’t meet singles in their daily life, and there aren’t really any activites they can join in their area. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/56 "2018-01-25T21:08:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > “I’m going over to Starbucks. Wanna come with?” As \*\*Jim \*\*stated, apparently I have to already know the girl in order to ask her to go to Starbucks. I don’t remember it being like that in the early 90s. Has it changed that much? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/57 "2018-01-25T21:13:47Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > But we have learned that in Germany that would be considered too rude, unless you already know her. Viscious circle / Catch 22… Think about people who don’t meet singles in their daily life, and there aren’t really any activites they can join in their area. Yes and then young men will get sexually frustrated and join fringe political movements and get thrown in jail and write manifestos blaming someone else for all their problems, and… ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/58 "2018-01-25T21:15:47Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Yes and then young men will get sexually frustrated and join fringe political movements and get thrown in jail and write manifestos blaming someone else for all their problems, and… What do you mean by… 😕😕:eek::eek: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/59 "2018-01-25T21:50:04Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Hitting on = making an unwanted (often crass) advance towards a stranger > > I thought that was the AE usage? I don’t think it necessarily means “unwanted.” It just means you make your interest in someone clear. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221/60 "2018-01-25T21:58:34Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > But we have learned that in Germany that would be considered too rude, unless you already know her. Depends on the circumstance. You went to a rock concert / poetry reading and noticed a Girl sitting there. After the Event, you ask her “Want to discuss the band/ Poem in the coffeehouse next street?” - okay. Looking at a woman in the subway and asking “Want to drink a coffee with me?” - not okay. > [@](#): > > Think about people who don’t meet singles in their daily life, and there aren’t really any activites they can join in their area. I’m hardpressed to think of that: These People don’t go to work (or work at the bottom of a mine-shaft without colleauges). They don’t do volunteer work, either. They are not part of a sports Club, pigeon fancier Club or anything. It is more difficult if you are poor, but the bigger cities have meetups that are free of Charge, too: Senior Dance on wednesday afternoon in the Senior centre; free sports in the City park in summer; etc. And it’s not just cities - in rural Areas, it’s much more important to be part of the “traditional clothes / old-fashioned Shooting Club” (Trachten/ Schützenverein), the volunteer fire Brigade, or whatever, because there’s Little else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-sadie-hawkins-feminism-a-thing/807221.md?page=4)