# Why isn't the "Cornerstone Speech" used to shut down "The Civil War was about economics" apologists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060 "2015-07-02T17:01:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/21 "2015-07-02T23:27:56Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Because the reason to own a slave is white supremacy, not agricultural labor. Actually, the belief in white supremacy was to justify owning people to perform agricultural labor. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/22 "2015-07-02T23:37:40Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > That the south’s economy was almost 100% slave-based is both true, and zero justification for allowing the institution to continue. They had the same 100 years to phase it out that the other states did. They did, although there’s more money in cash crops in places like Mississippi than places like New York. But nevertheless, it was their justification. It comes down to axioms. If you think everybody is equal and entitled to the fruits of their labor, then it becomes hard to justify slavery or feudalism, or any other system where an underclass exists to serve the upper class. If, on the other hand, you think that people are naturally unequal, and there are some people who are inherently masters and others inherently servants, then it becomes trivially easy. Once you have that mindset, and once you have those axioms, which permeated the antebellum South, especially among the planter class, then accepting slavery is incredibly easy. And then, the people who argue for equality and against slavery become not just wrong, but evil, because they’re trying to disrupt the natural order and bring the naturally superior down to the level of the naturally inferior…they’re disrupting the natural order. So, for the southern planter, the justification for secession was because the party that just got elected sought to interfere with slavery. And the justification for supporting slavery is because it benefited the people in charge. And that’s the justification, and all the justification they needed. > [@Grotonian](#): > > Because the reason to own a slave is white supremacy, not agricultural labor. I’m pretty sure it was primarily about agricultural labor. The white supremacy helped sooth their consciences, but they did it because it was making them money. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/23 "2015-07-02T23:51:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m pretty sure it was primarily about agricultural labor. The white supremacy helped sooth their consciences, but they did it because it was making them money. One thing I didn’t realize until recently was that it was about utopianism, and THAT was about white supremacy. The apologists for slavery in the South didn’t simply believe it was a necessary evil. Oh, no. They believed that slavery benefited both black people and white people, that black people were the inferior race and were uplifted by servitude, whereas the servitude of black people enabled a sort of egalitarianism among white people, who never had to stoop to the sort of menial labor necessary for white people in the non-slave-owning states. The confederacy had (admittedly far-fetched) plans to extend their utopian society to Central and South America, so convinced were they of its rectitude. The attempts to say “THE NORTH DID IT TOO!!!” give too little credit to the Peculiar Institution. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/24 "2015-07-02T23:53:43Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Please tell me you got the joke (1918 = World War I) and you’re just pretending to have been whooshed. No, I just ignored that part because it was irrelevant to my point. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/25 "2015-07-03T01:27:26Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I think this is where it shows what a bad American I am–I don’t care about secession. They tried it; we put a boot up their asses; problem solved. They’ve hardly given us any trouble since, like Germany after 1918. Tom Lehrer reference noted and appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/26 "2015-07-03T02:08:08Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Because people who want to believe it was about state’s rights are going to believe it was about state’s rights no matter what you show them. You could raise Robert E. Lee from the dead, reanimate him, and have him dance a samba while singing “The Confederacy existed to keep slavery legal/or else I’m a little spayed stray dachshund-beagle” and they would say “that’s one man’s opinions”. Show them the Mississippi Declaration of Secession which was just as blunt, that was just the opinion of whoever wrote that. > > Trust me, I’ve been through this many many times, they will not listen and have no problem keeping their views in face of evidence. Many of these are the children and grandchildren of people who laughed and screamed racial slurs when the water hoses were turned on black marchers and then went to church. No region holds the patent on doublespeak, but I daresay we do it exceptionally well down heah. This is pretty much it. I’ve gotten into plenty of arguments with people where I cite my sources and they’ll say something like, “you don’t know history” and “it was about state’s rights.” Awesome. Where are your sources? “You’re stupid. It was about state’s rights. And the North was just as racist.” ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/27 "2015-07-03T02:45:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, I just ignored that part because it was irrelevant to my point. No, it was quite germane; it was what made your point the same as mine (well, and Tom Lehrer’s.) ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/28 "2015-07-03T02:50:03Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > This is pretty much it. I’ve gotten into plenty of arguments with people where I cite my sources and they’ll say something like, “you don’t know history” and “it was about state’s rights.” > > Awesome. Where are your sources? > > “You’re stupid. It was about state’s rights. And the North was just as racist.” I don’t understand why pointing out that the North was just as racist irritates. Do you deny that the North was just as racist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/29 "2015-07-03T03:03:30Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > No, it was quite germane; it was what made your point the same as mine (well, and Tom Lehrer’s.) Not exactly, considering the time periods we’re discussing. Civil Rights didn’t happen until the 60s. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/30 "2015-07-03T03:25:07Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t understand why pointing out that the North was just as racist irritates. Do you deny that the North was just as racist? Given the number of slaves who fled to Northern States, it appears black people at the time denied it. There was certainly plenty of racism in the North, but its a little silly to compare it to a mass system of chattle slavery. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/31 "2015-07-03T03:36:06Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t understand why pointing out that the North was just as racist irritates. Do you deny that the North was just as racist? Because it isn’t relevant to the discussion. Yeah, they were racist as all hell. But the North didn’t attempt to secede from the Union to protect slavery. I mean, I don’t know about you, but I personally would rather live in racist as hell North than chattel slavery South. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/32 "2015-07-03T07:39:12Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t understand why pointing out that the North was just as racist irritates. Do you deny that the North was just as racist? Have you not heard about the Abolitionist movement? Penn, and MA went slavery free in the early 1800s. These are the “state’s rights” the south was complaining about. States thinking they have the right to abolish slavery. Yes “states rights” was an issue but the South was against the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/33 "2015-07-03T12:25:02Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > Because it isn’t relevant to the discussion. Yeah, they were racist as all hell. But the North didn’t attempt to secede from the Union to protect slavery. They didn’t have to, slavery was legal for any state that wanted it, such as Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware. > [@](#): > > I mean, I don’t know about you, but I personally would rather live in racist as hell North than chattel slavery South. But not the chattel slavery North? If I were an escaped slave, I wouldn’t feel safe in the Fugitive Slave Law North, but maybe I just have prickly sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/34 "2015-07-03T12:30:01Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Have you not heard about the Abolitionist movement? Penn, and MA went slavery free in the early 1800s. These are the “state’s rights” the south was complaining about. States thinking they have the right to abolish slavery. Yes “states rights” was an issue but the South was against the idea. Oh, I didn’t realize the abolitionists were the majority or that they advocated racial equality. That must be why there’s no racism now in Mass. or Penn. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/35 "2015-07-03T12:33:46Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > They didn’t have to, slavery was legal for any state that wanted it, such as Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, and Delaware. The other states outlawed slavery. That’s better than not doing so, so point in favor of those that outlawed slavery. > [@](#): > > But not the chattel slavery North? If I were an escaped slave, I wouldn’t feel safe in the Fugitive Slave Law North, but maybe I just have prickly sensibilities. The Fugitive Slave Law was not enforced in many states in the North. It was definitely better and safer to be black in many parts of the North. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/36 "2015-07-03T12:47:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The Fugitive Slave Law was not enforced in many states in the North. It was definitely better and safer to be black in many parts of the North. I came in to say this. Instead, I will note that the FSL was itself a huge violation of states rights. Free states were not allowed, _even though they wanted to_, enforce legislation making everyone in their territory free. Which puts paid to both the state’s rights and “just as racist” claims in one neat package. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/37 "2015-07-03T13:39:48Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Have you not heard about the Abolitionist movement? Penn, and MA went slavery free in the early 1800s. These are the “state’s rights” the south was complaining about. States thinking they have the right to abolish slavery. Yes “states rights” was an issue but the South was against the idea. Abolitionists weren’t limited just to the North; there always were some within the other states as well. And, AFAIK, a minority every place they existed. The difference was that in the North they had managed to capture enough positions of power to guide the majority towards their personal goals. After all, the Emancipation Proclamation wasn’t a part of Lincoln’s first Inaugural Address; almost the opposite. It isn’t featured on very many of the various patriotic devices and decorations of the time. More it was “the Union - must be preserved”. To the average Yankee succession, and not slavery, was the reason for fighting. I do like your spin on the “states rights” angle but there are a few issues with it. I don’t see where, from the formation of the United States on, any southern state objected to a northern state outlawing slavery _within its borders for its own citizens_. In other words, for the people of that state to make such a declaration or determination for themselves. For a federal government to make that ruling for all or for a state to inflict its will on a citizen of another traveling through, sure. But for the southern states to expect universal slavery for the continent? Even during the early 1800s, and even with the cases of PA and Mass, their attitude seems more “Dude - if that’s what you want go for it”. If you have examples I would be curious to know about them. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/38 "2015-07-03T14:34:45Z")
Realistically, if the North had volunteered to purchase every slave and replace them with a robot that would do the same work at the same overall expense of time and resources, I don’t think that the South would have complained. They would have let the slaves go. By that standard, the South wasn’t fighting for slavery, they were fighting for their economic foundation. But since no such robot was in existence, in order to fight for their economic foundation, they had to preserve slavery. And that means that they needed to establish and preserve a moral foundation for it to exist and continue. So I wouldn’t say that it’s untrue that the Civil War was about economics, because realistically it was. And I wouldn’t say that Alexander Stephens’ speach conflicts with it in any way. But the fact that the Southerners could view it as a war over economics is probably the most racist thing about the war. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/39 "2015-07-03T16:42:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The other states outlawed slavery. That’s better than not doing so, so point in favor of those that outlawed slavery. > > The Fugitive Slave Law was not enforced in many states in the North. It was definitely better and safer to be black in many parts of the North. My question was about racism, not slavery. Outlawing slavery because it’s not profitable hardly demonstrates a lack of racism. And arguing that FSL wasn’t ALWAYS enforced does nothing to protect those against whom it WAS enforced. Christ, if outlawing (some) slavery and not ALWAYS sending escaped slaves back to their tormentors is how you demonstrate a lack of racism, it’s no wonder we still have such massive race issues. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/40 "2015-07-03T17:03:34Z")
Seriously, it’s not a logical issue to these people. Cite them 205 different “We’re doing this for slavery” quotes, they’re going to respond unironically by telling you that you need to read a history book. To the very limited extent they read at all the material is chosen for confirmation rather than for information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060.md?page=3)