# Why isn't the "Cornerstone Speech" used to shut down "The Civil War was about economics" apologists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060 "2015-07-02T17:01:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/61 "2015-07-04T13:50:21Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Racism is, unfortunately, an ongoing problem in many parts of the world. (Sometimes Xenophobia is the word–when the different groups of people happen to resemble each other.) > > The **fact** is that the CSA tried to break the Union because they wished to preserve Slavery. (Yes, that was Reason #1; do not try to lecture me about Texas history.) Alas, Racism has survived (and not just in the South). But the Union endures & Slavery is gone. > > _[Dominion of Memories: Jefferson, Madison and the Decline of Virginia](http://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Memories-Jefferson-Madison-Virginia-ebook/dp/B00R3KLGYE/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436000921&sr=1-1&keywords=dominion+of+virginia+jefferson+madison)_ shows how the once-great state suffered because of the power of the slavemasters. They clung to their agrarian way of life even as the land wore out, eschewing industrial development, neglecting to develop canals (& railroads when the time came) & regarding public education as unnecessary expense. So the state declined & the South declined–making the region less attractive to immigrants than the North. And making the South more likely to lose the war they started. > > Slavery was the root of it all. Read Jefferson’s [Notes on the State of Virginia](http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/jeffvir.asp) to discover why this pioneer of Scientific Racism excused slavery; those free blacks would have to be shipped far, far away. (Which would cost too much & TJ, like most planters, was eternally in debt–especially with his elegant lifestyle.) Good points…in 1776, the Southern states were the richest ones. By 1830 or so, the Northern ones were. the answer was industrialization and technology. Good point about public schools-the south had a labor force that was illiterate and hence difficult to train. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/62 "2015-07-04T14:29:54Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > If your form of slavery is race based, then yes, slavery = racism. > If you say, held slaves that you captured in war, like if England held French people as slaves because they won war, then that form of slavery would not be racist. The ancient Greeks held slaves from anybody they conquered. Not based on their race but on if they lost a war. > > They held black slaves because they were black. > > Yes there were racist people in the north, there are racist people in the north now, even in Massachusetts. Does that make you feel better? Nope. Look up racism in a dictionary. But as far as your example, a society could have race-based slavery with no racism at all. If society A (let’s call them Spartans) enslaves race B (let’s call them Helots) because they want agricultural workers so all the Spartans can be soldiers, there’s no racism there unless there is the BELIEF that traits inhere in races (usually coupled with the belief that one race is superior). If the Spartans all concede that Helots are their equals, but they want slaves for their economic value anyway, there’s no racism. There’s certainly RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, but that’s not racism as racism is a belief and discrimination is an action. I realize that racial discrimination is usually correlated with racism, but it doesn’t have to be. Schools sometimes institute programs for one race that are laudable, or at least innocuous, and not racist at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/63 "2015-07-04T15:01:13Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Nope, you’re wrong. Racism is a belief. Look it up. Slavery is not defined by racism nor racism by slavery. Look it up. > > No, if we both agree blacks are inferior, lynching is irrelevant to the belief which we share. Moreover, if I own slaves because it’s profitable and you don’t because it’s unprofitable in your climate, but we both agree blacks are inferior, slavery is absolutely no commentary on our racism. > > But don’t take my word for it; look it up. Looked up – according to various dictionaries, racism can be beliefs, actions, assertions, etc. Enslaving black people is more racist than using racial slurs, even if both are racist. The South’s racism was worse overall than the North’s racism. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/64 "2015-07-04T15:53:56Z")
Even if we ignore the silly etymological stuff about the word “racism”, the South was a lot worse then the North _for black people_ – and that’s what really matters when comparing them. A black person was treated better in most of the North than anywhere in the South. Less slavery, and less brutality – so less _bad stuff against black people_ in the North. Feel free to characterize it as racism or not racism, but the South was _worse for black people_ than most places in the North. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/65 "2015-07-04T16:30:31Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Apparently you think slavery is somehow synonymous with racism, it is not; they are two different things. Racism is the belief that traits inhere in races. And as the Cornerstone Speech itself says, the basis of African slavery in the states was that blacks were so inferior that the only possible way they could be part of a civilization was as slaves. > [@](#): > > Are you suggesting southerners hated blacks but northerners only held a mild dislike? . Southerners didn’t hate blacks- as long as they remained docile, obedient and absolutely in submission to whites. The moment any black person declared that they were a person with rights equal to white person’s, the response was vitriolic, homicidal hatred. Northerners at least believed that blacks had the same _ **moral** _ standing in the eyes of God, and therefore at a minimum deserved not to be robbed of their labor. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/66 "2015-07-04T16:35:05Z")
A fun exercise it to imagine how history would’ve unfolded had the Confederacy won. The Emancipation Proclamation would’ve become null and void, and well, let’s leave the rest to your imagination… ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/67 "2015-07-04T16:52:46Z")
Another what-if I’ve wondered about is if the boll weevil had arrived in the south by the 1820s, decimating cotton growing and making slavery a much less profitable enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/68 "2015-07-04T17:02:27Z")
Now all we need is a Delorean, a flux capacitor and about 100,000 boll weevils! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/69 "2015-07-04T17:18:36Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Another what-if I’ve wondered about is if the boll weevil had arrived in the south by the 1820s, decimating cotton growing and making slavery a much less profitable enterprise. There might have been a huge spike in the market for sausages with now-racist names. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/70 "2015-07-04T20:22:03Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > There might have been a huge spike in the market for sausages with now-racist names. :eek: 😕 OK, I’m whooshed… ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/71 "2015-07-05T13:02:05Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > 😕 OK, I’m whooshed… Yeh, me too. ??? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/72 "2015-07-05T16:39:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Looked up – according to various dictionaries, racism can be beliefs, actions, assertions, etc. Enslaving black people is more racist than using racial slurs, even if both are racist. The South’s racism was worse overall than the North’s racism. I have no idea where you found such a definition, and to maintain that you found several certainly strains credulity. They were not the Oxford English or Merriam-Webster Dictionaries. Those both make clear that racism is a belief. I’m no apologist for slavery, as you are for Northern racism. I don’t think slavery was ennobling, or “better” than working in a Northern mine or factory. But you lose the argument when you claim the South was more racist; it was not. The Northerners’ hearts were no different from the Southerners’: they both maintained blacks were inferior and subordinate to whites. I will certainly concede that I would prefer to be beaten in a race riot over being enslaved. I presume most black people would agree with me. That does not lessen the harm from being beaten in a race riot, nor the guilt of those responsible. If you want to argue,“They’re grandpappies did MORE HARM than ours did because theirs owned slaves and ours just burned a few crosses.” I will happily concede the point. But if you insist on claiming that Southerners were MORE RACIST than Northerners, you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/73 "2015-07-05T17:45:24Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I have no idea where you found such a definition, and to maintain that you found several certainly strains credulity. They were not the Oxford English or Merriam-Webster Dictionaries. Those both make clear that racism is a belief. Dictionaries often have more than one definition because words can be used for multiple meanings. For example, [Merriam Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism) includes “poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race” and “racial prejudice or discrimination”, in addition to ‘belief’ definitions. There are many others. > [@](#): > > I’m no apologist for slavery, as you are for Northern racism. I don’t think slavery was ennobling, or “better” than working in a Northern mine or factory. I’m not an apologist either – Northern racism was despicable and disgusting, and only exceeded overall by Southern racism. Northern racism was terrible, awful, evil, disgusting, etc., and Southern racism was worse. > [@](#): > > But you lose the argument when you claim the South was more racist; it was not. The Northerners’ hearts were no different from the Southerners’: they both maintained blacks were inferior and subordinate to whites. Their hearts were different in many states on the issue of slavery – and no slavery is better and _less racist_ than slavery. Really, no slavery is better than slavery. Having some states with no slavery is better than having slavery in every state. Including slavery and white supremacism in one’s founding documents and reasons for existence is worse than not doing so. > [@](#): > > I will certainly concede that I would prefer to be beaten in a race riot over being enslaved. I presume most black people would agree with me. That does not lessen the harm from being beaten in a race riot, nor the guilt of those responsible. Then I don’t think you know much about being enslaved, since it typically lasted a lifetime and involved beatings and much worse (including likely rape if you’re female). I’d easily pick being beaten, and so would the black people in my immediate family and neighbors whom I’ve asked. > [@](#): > > If you want to argue,“They’re grandpappies did MORE HARM than ours did because theirs owned slaves and ours just burned a few crosses.” I will happily concede the point. But if you insist on claiming that Southerners were MORE RACIST than Northerners, you’re wrong. Southerners did more harm (which is far more important than beliefs) than Northerners to black people, overall. Further, after slavery Southerners (white Southerners, anyway) continued to oppress and discriminate against black people more than Northerners (though it definitely existed everywhere, just to a greater degree in the South), including segregation, Jim Crow, voting suppression, banning interracial marriage, and other disgusting acts for up to a century after slavery ended. So it’s not just slavery – it’s the century afterwards (and perhaps even longer). And many or most Southern white people refuse to accept how recently the South, and Southern culture and tradition, were truly an evil and oppressive. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/74 "2015-07-05T19:08:38Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > If you want to argue,“They’re grandpappies did MORE HARM than ours did because theirs owned slaves and ours just burned a few crosses.” I will happily concede the point. But if you insist on claiming that Southerners were MORE RACIST than Northerners, you’re wrong. You think cross burning is more of a northern thing? Really? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/75 "2015-07-05T20:19:09Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > You think cross burning is more of a northern thing? Really? Michigan… Mississippi… kinda sound similar. If you squint. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/76 "2015-07-06T04:23:07Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > You think cross burning is more of a northern thing? Really? “Lighting” (not burning) the cross came into vogue after the 1915 movie, “Birth of a Nation.” In the 1920’s, Indiana had the highest Klan participation in the nation, and the Ku Klux Klan had a nationwide, not just Southern, following. Michigan had 80,000 Klan members, 40,000 of whom lived in Detroit. Like I said (wrote) above, we Yankees had more racism because we had more racists. But, yeah, racism was, and is, worse down South because slavery. Here’s the link, the relevant parts are under the heading, “The Second Klan”: > **[Ku Klux Klan](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan)** > > The Ku Klux Klan (/ˌkuː klʌks ˈklæn, ˌkjuː-/),\[e\] commonly shortened to the KKK or the Klan, is the name of an American white supremacist, far-right terrorist organization and hate group. Various historians, including Fergus Bordewich, have characterized the Klan as America's first terrorist group. There have been three distinct iterations with various targets relative to time and place, including African Americans, Jews, and Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/77 "2015-07-06T11:32:04Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > But, yeah, racism was, and is, worse down South because slavery. Hey guys, I think he’s getting it! Though it was about far more than slavery – lynchings, segregation, Jim Crow, anti-interracial-marriage laws, voting suppression, and the like were all more prevalent in Southern states than in Northern states. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/78 "2015-07-06T19:55:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hey guys, I think he’s getting it! Though it was about far more than slavery – lynchings, segregation, Jim Crow, anti-interracial-marriage laws, voting suppression, and the like were all more prevalent in Southern states than in Northern states. Cite? Or is it one of those things, like the Klan being a Southern thing, that doesn’t require any proof because we all know it’s true? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/79 "2015-07-06T22:19:23Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Cite? Or is it one of those things, like the Klan being a Southern thing, that doesn’t require any proof because we all know it’s true? [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States), [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States#In_the_South), [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States#Anti-miscegenation_laws_overturned_on_12_June_1967_by_Loving_v._Virginia), and [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States#Jim_Crow_laws); all of these were significantly more prevalent in Southern states than in non-Southern states, though they existed in many places. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/80 "2015-07-07T07:02:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States), [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States#In_the_South), [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws_in_the_United_States#Anti-miscegenation_laws_overturned_on_12_June_1967_by_Loving_v._Virginia), and [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States#Jim_Crow_laws); all of these were significantly more prevalent in Southern states than in non-Southern states, though they existed in many places. So according to your own cites, there were MORE LYNCHINGS in the West, MORE ANTI-MISCEGENATION laws in the West and Plains, and MORE SEGREGATION in the North, West, and Plains (de facto), but the Southerners were MORE RACIST, right? You’re hilarious. Well, hey, the South still wins for slavery and Jim Crow. But really, don’t we all already know that Southerners are just a bunch of toothless, in-bred, morons with guns, Bibles (King James Versions), and Confederate Flags? Let’s not let some silly facts stop us from ridiculing them. If all else fails we can always scream, “SLAVERY!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060.md?page=5)