# Why isn't the "Cornerstone Speech" used to shut down "The Civil War was about economics" apologists? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060 "2015-07-02T17:01:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/101 "2015-07-08T12:41:22Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The Civil War wasn’t about economics: it was about independence. It was about whether a group of states had the right (or the ability) to separate themselves from the rest. The \*reason \*they wanted to secede being … what? :dubious: Hint: There’s plenty of documentation, including their VP’s speech, the subject of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/102 "2015-07-08T13:50:14Z")
As I’ve pointed out in other threads on this subject, ironically the North wasn’t fighting to free the slaves (although that was what the South was fighting _against_), and the South wasn’t really fighting for independence per se (although that was what the North was fighting _against_). But somehow the historical narrative later became inverted. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/103 "2015-07-08T14:50:26Z")
Are there many surviving records of the poor financial state of the South? The plantation owners faced the same problems that all farmers face-how to borrow money against a future crop. The South seemed to accept the domination of Northern and British banks in this-why didn’t they set up their own banks? I imagine that the South was actually close to bankruptcy, as the result of one crop, slave-powered plantations. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Bredin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@John\_Bredin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Bredin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/104 "2015-07-08T16:13:30Z")
I’m still puzzling on the boll weevil and sausages thing. 😕🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/105 "2015-07-08T16:19:06Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > As I’ve pointed out in other threads on this subject, ironically the North wasn’t fighting to free the slaves (although that was what the South was fighting _against_), and the South wasn’t really fighting for independence per se (although that was what the North was fighting _against_). But somehow the historical narrative later became inverted. I blame a lot (about the inversion) on how Grant worded the surrender at Appomattox. " This done, each officer and man will be allowed to return to his home, not to be disturbed by the United States authorities so long as they observe their paroles, and the laws in force where they may reside. " The “not to be disturbed” part (and to a lesser extent the “where they may reside” part) allowed some in the South to come out of it thinking they were being honored and their lifestyle and most of the culture would be preserved under the terms of the surrender. Some in the North just looked at the surrender as an overall document and thought “now’s our chance to teach those bastards a lesson” since the South was admitting defeat. And the result is 150 years of spin and rewriting history by both groups. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/106 "2015-07-08T18:45:59Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Are there many surviving records of the poor financial state of the South? The plantation owners faced the same problems that all farmers face-how to borrow money against a future crop. The South seemed to accept the domination of Northern and British banks in this-why didn’t they set up their own banks? I imagine that the South was actually close to bankruptcy, as the result of one crop, slave-powered plantations. And yet the self-congratulation of the antebellum South borders on the psychotic, as evident in the Cornerstone Speech… They actually thought that they were keeping the banks and factories of the North and Britain in existence, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/107 "2015-07-08T19:11:45Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Read the thread. Saying, “The North wasn’t as bad,” is definitely a defense. It’s not defending racism to say that the North provided a more hospitable environment to blacks than the South did. It’s hard to imagine the people who risked their lives running the Underground Railroad splitting semantic hairs over the relative levels of racism in each region. Your entire position hinges on this definition of racism as a belief divorced from all of the cultural and economic institutions that reflect and perpetuate it. That may be the first usage in the dictionary, but that doesn’t mean that definition is exclusive of any others, and it certainly doesn’t reflect the way words like racism and other “-isms” are used in general discourse; words mean what we all agree they mean. But if it will soothe the pedant in you, we can substitute “racism” with “race-based institutions of repression and disenfranchisement,” and then maybe all agree that yeah, the North was probably a better place to be black in antebellum America. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/108 "2015-07-09T07:18:00Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > There might have been a huge spike in the market for sausages with now-racist names. :eek: Did you post in the wrong thread? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/109 "2015-07-09T13:15:27Z")
**Why isn’t the “Cornerstone Speech” used to shut down “The Civil War was about economics” apologists?** Actually, [it is](http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/life_and_entertainment/2015/07/09/1-confederate-motivations-right-there-in-print.html). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/110 "2015-07-11T04:42:39Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I have no idea where you found such a definition, and to maintain that you found several certainly strains credulity. They were not the Oxford English or Merriam-Webster Dictionaries. Those both make clear that racism is a belief. [Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism): > [@](#): > > racism > noun rac·ism \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi- > :\*\* poor treatment of or violence against people because of their race\*\* > > : the belief that some races of people are better than others > > Full Definition of RACISM > > 1 > : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race > 2 > : racial prejudice **or discrimination** [Oxford Dictionaries](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/racism): > [@](#): > > racism > > Syllabification: rac·ism > Pronunciation: /ˈrāˌsizəm/ > Definition of racism in English: > noun > > 1 **Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race** based on the belief that one’s own race is superior: > a program to combat racism > > 1.1The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races: > theories of racism [Encyclopædia Britannica/Random House Dictionary](http://www.britannica.com/topic/racism): > [@](#): > > Racism, also called racialism , > apartheid: South African beach during the apartheid era [Credit: E. Andrews—Impact Photos/Heritage-Images] **any action, practice** , or belief that reflects the racial worldview—the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races,” that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral features, and that some races are innately superior to others. [American Heritage Dictionary](https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=racism&submit.x=38&submit.y=23): > [@](#): > > rac·ism (rāsĭz′əm) > Share: > n. > > 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. > 2. **Discrimination or prejudice based on race**. [Cambridge Dictionaries Online](http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-english/racism): > [@](#): > > racism > noun US /ˈreɪ·sɪz·əm/ > › social studies the belief that some races are better than others, **or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race** Certainly, the word began as an indicator of belief. Usage does not stand still, however, and the word currently includes the expanded meaning of actions driven by the racial beliefs. The credibility challenged by your statements is your own. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/111 "2015-07-11T05:31:38Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > But not the chattel slavery North? If I were an escaped slave, I wouldn’t feel safe in the Fugitive Slave Law North, but maybe I just have prickly sensibilities. There was no “Fugitive Slave Law North” There was a national Fugitive Slave Law and the South, (the South that threatened war, insisting that New England had no right to secede when New England’s economy was being destroyed by Mr. Madison’s War, the South that tried to experiment with Nullification to avoid dealing with “Northern” tariffs then turned around and denied it could be used by Northern states opposed to the Fugitive Slave Law, the South that insisted that there was no “States Right” to ignore the Fugitive Slave law), insisted that it be applied to Northern states. There was and is a lot of racism in the North. However, before the Civil War, every Northern state had made some effort to abolish slavery. No Southern state did until a couple were bribed to support the Thirteenth Amendment after the war. There is a reason that escaped slaves headed to the North away from the South. There is a reason why black people migrated to the North in increasing numbers throughout the late 19th through the middle of the 20th centuries. The effects of racism (whatever word game you want to play regarding its definition) were less in the North than in the South. Due to the Southern insistence on the Federal Fugitive Slave laws, few escaped slaves were comfortable in the North, either, most fleeing to Canada. On the other hand, slave takers were often hassled in Northern towns and fugitive slaves were often protected by white citizens in the North against the slave takers. Slavery was outlawed before the Civil War: 1771, Massachusetts, (overruled by Governor appointed by King George) 1777, Vermont, (before joining the U.S.) 1780, Pennsylvania (Gradual) 1783, Massachusetts (Total) 1783, New Hampshire (Gradual) 1784, Connecticut (Gradual) 1784, Rhode Island (Gradual) 1787, Northwest Territories (Total) 1799, New York, (Gradual) 1802, Oho (Total) 1804, New Jersey (Gradual) 1820, Maine (Total) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/112 "2015-07-11T08:36:36Z")
Dont forget that states rights WERE a big issue back then. Thats why for example, Union troops were organized by state like the “101st Maine” or the “23rd Pennsylvania” brigade. States were very against federal rule. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060/113 "2015-07-11T08:42:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Due to the Southern insistence on the Federal Fugitive Slave laws, few escaped slaves were comfortable in the North, either, most fleeing to Canada. And under the last iteration of the Fugitive Slave Act, free blacks weren’t safe either. Purported fugitives were not allowed to testify in their own defense, and the commissioners who heard fugitive slave cases were paid double if they agreed that the person brought to them was an escaped slave. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-cornerstone-speech-used-to-shut-down-the-civil-war-was-about-economics-apologists/724060.md?page=5)