# Why isn't the first day of fall... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 22, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143 "2011-09-22T03:04:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/61 "2012-09-29T00:38:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Australia is on Earth, isn’t it? > > And **gnoitall** , that’s certainly and indisputably what the solstices are, but there’s no fundamental reason why one has to say that the solstice is the first day of summer. Is there any good reason to call the solstice the first day of summer? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/62 "2012-09-29T00:53:11Z")
Psychologically, I always think of the solstice as the mid-point of the summer. It’s “midsummer’s day,” after all. But, then, psychologically, my seasons are of extremely unequal length. Spring feels like it lasts about 50% longer than fall. Solstice is the beginning of astronomical summer, simply by conventional definition. When you become chairman of the Astronomical Congress, you can have it changed however you like. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/63 "2012-09-29T02:24:48Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? Explain, please? > > Is this an Australian thing? (Southern hemisphere?) Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/64 "2012-09-29T03:24:00Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > There is no first day of Fall in Maine, which has just two seasons – Winter and July. Aww, come on. We had spring this year for a change. I don’t get the people who complain about the asymmetrical seasons in Game of Thrones…I’m 35 and there’s been like 4 springs my whole life. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/65 "2012-09-29T04:47:30Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > [ul] > [li]Meteorological summer starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been above 10 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][li]Meteorological autumn starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been below 10 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][li]Meteorological winter starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been below 0 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][li]Meteorological spring starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been above 0 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][/ul] > Dates are irrelevant. This seems like a very strange definition. I’d think you could easily have a few days of summer then spring again then summer, etc. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/67 "2012-09-29T19:24:09Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > [ul] > [li]Meteorological summer starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been above 10 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][li]Meteorological autumn starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been below 10 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][li]Meteorological winter starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been below 0 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][li]Meteorological spring starts when the mean temperature over 24 hours has been above 0 C during a period of 5 days.[/li][/ul] > Dates are irrelevant. ISTR there was a master list of all the people who actually cared more about meteorological seasons than astronomical seasons, but the half sheet of paper was accidentally flushed down the toilet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Michael63129](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Michael63129](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael63129)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/68 "2012-09-29T19:52:36Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > This seems like a very strange definition. I’d think you could easily have a few days of summer then spring again then summer, etc. Not to mention that 10C is only 50F - which I doubt would be considered summer anywhere except for the Arctic. Similarly, 0C (32F) is just as arbitrary, and why use the average; for agricultural purposes, a low temperature below freezing is more important; this is what I see used to determine the growing season (first and last freeze). ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/69 "2012-09-30T05:16:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The concept of a season originates with human experience of the weather and the activities of plants and animals in the environment. Is it cold enough to wear furs? Do I need to start hoarding food for the winter? Is it warm enough to plant? Is it wet enough to make my crops thrive? Is it time for the deer to start wandering by? Is it the time for the berries to be gathered? Yes, the concept of “seasons” arises from human experience, and the desire to describe the general weather patterns and be able to plan for the future. Our terms are baggage from western culture arising in temperate zones. There’s no real reason the astronomical descriptions of where the Sun is in relation to the Earth has to correspond to any particular terms used to describe general weather patterns. Rather, in our attempts to define and constrain our weather pattern terms into some rational and consistent basis, we looked at what caused those patterns - the relationship between the Earth and the Sun. Then we let the scientists get all technical on their ass. (See what happened with Pluto?) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/70 "2012-09-30T17:02:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **BwanaBob** : > > ISTR there was a master list of all the people who actually cared more about meteorological seasons than astronomical seasons, but the half sheet of paper was accidentally flushed down the toilet. Surely, it’s the other way around? _Everyone_ cares about whether they’re going to need to put on a jacket when they go outside, but very few people even know what the equinoces and solstices even are. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/71 "2012-09-30T19:22:46Z")
At least seasons defined by the equinoxes and solstices are an objective and global way to demarcate the seasons. IMHO, it’s the most logical way of doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/72 "2012-09-30T21:14:09Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > At least seasons defined by the equinoxes and solstices are an objective and global way to demarcate the seasons. IMHO, it’s the most logical way of doing so. And why do we all need an objective, global, and logical way of demarcating seasons for all purposes? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/73 "2012-09-30T21:30:01Z")
When I was in Scotland a few months ago, I learned that summer happened one Tuesday last year. Hehe 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/74 "2012-09-30T21:48:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And why do we all need an objective, global, and logical way of demarcating seasons for all purposes? To piss off subjective, localized, and arbitrary demarcations for the seasons, of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/75 "2012-09-30T21:52:33Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > I assure you it’s wabbit season. Nope. Zombie season. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/76 "2012-09-30T21:55:55Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > To piss off subjective, localized, and arbitrary demarcations for the seasons, of course. A kind of social trolling then. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/77 "2012-09-30T22:32:48Z")
How are demarcations based on the equinoces etc. global? Even different cultures that demark based on them don’t all do it the same way: As I mentioned before, for instance, in the British Isles those days are considered to mark the middle of the seasons, not their beginnings. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/78 "2012-10-01T00:55:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How are demarcations based on the equinoces etc. global? Even different cultures that demark based on them don’t all do it the same way: As I mentioned before, for instance, in the British Isles those days are considered to mark the middle of the seasons, not their beginnings. Point taken. Yet if the world needs a clock for the seasons, they are the ideal points in the earth’s orbit that are, practically, unchanging—no matter where on earth you are or what calendar one uses. Then, the only argument to have is how to apply these points (as mentioned), and what to label the seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143/79 "2012-10-01T09:49:08Z")
> [@the\_sandman](#): > > Seasons are determined by the relative position of the sun, not by temperature. > The first day of autumn is the day that the sun crosses the 23rd parallel Tell the meteorologists. They might be interested in knowing that they do it wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-first-day-of-fall/597143.md?page=3)