# Why isn't the IRA considered a Terrorist Group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674 "2005-04-16T20:45:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/61 "2005-04-17T08:11:53Z")
> [@](#): > > The state of Northern Ireland follows no historical or geographical boundaries and the majority of the island of Ireland voted to sever links with the UK (in the long-term) why does the preference of the majority of an entirely arbitary man-made entity over-ride the wishes of the majority? Because they want to remain part of England? They are Protestants who were a favoured majority in NI? And are decended from the UK? Does that answer your question? Its like asking if the Kurds if they should be part of Iraq or independent, its a no brainer. > [@](#): > > In the words of an early leader of Northern Ireland it was designed to be “A Protestant land for a Protestant people”. And those weren’t idle words, they meant it. Of course they did, hence they wanted to remain part of a Prostestant majority state, and what was right next to them? The UK of course :rolleyes: Remember since the 9th/11th century IRELAND was one country,one religion,one language,one people. One language, one people yep. but one country? Haha, it was a patchwork of different Kingdoms and Lords. And by the way, England was a _Catholic_ country then. [http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire700.htm](http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire700.htm) [http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1100.htm](http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1100.htm) BRITIAN especially since HENRY VIII,sought to destroy IRELAND its language,its religion, its people, BRITIAN started the planation of SCOTS AND ENGLISH PROTESTANTS which meant catholics were driven off their lands, Catholics became non citizens,with no rights whatsoever Henry the VIII wasn’t King of Britain, he was king of England. Everything else, yep I agree. > [@](#): > > ethnic cleansing had begun,and in 1845/1850 THE GREAT STARVATION,euphemistically called the FAMINE,there was no famine 8 boatloads of food per day were leaving irsh ports,by 1850 over 1 million died of starvation and another 1.5 million either deported or escaped to other countries IRELAND had a pop of 8 million in the 19th century,by the time britian had finished it was 4.5 million,THE IRISH HOLOCAUST. Someone’s going over the top here. Looks like I need to set this guy straight. Oh look, facts! > [@](#): > > In September of 1845, a fungus called Phytophthora infestans was infecting Ireland’s potato crops, devastating the potato population. About half the Irish potato crop failed in 1845. This event is what began The Great Famine in Ireland. > [@](#): > > Many Irish landlords sent badly needed grain to England for profit, instead of retaining it for the poorer classes (cottiers and labourers). Without crops or employment the tenants could no longer pay rent, so many lost the lands they may have rented while their landlords exported grain ans cattle to offset their losses. The effect of this was multiplied by the fact that the English parliament was reluctant to send any food to Ireland. One official declared in 1846, “It is not the intention at all to import food for the use of the people of Ireland.” > [@](#): > > The famine is still a highly sensitive issue in Ireland and has left a bitter legacy in Anglo-Irish relations. **Historians agree that the British Government could not be held solely responsible for the calamity**. **When the potato crop failed through blight every year between 1845 and 1850, food was shipped to Ireland by the Government and charities but the profitable export of grain and cattle was allowed to continue**. As wealthy farmers and landowners profited, their tenants starved to death and London was widely accused of doing too little too late by way of relief. Ireland lost a quarter of its eight million population in six years. In addition to those who perished in Ireland, a million fled abroad to North America, Australia and New Zealand. Thousands died in horrific conditions on the Famine Ships. > [@](#): > > you talk of the IRISH REPUBLICAN BROTHERHOOD founded not in IRELAND but the USA in the 19th cent. MICHAEL COLLINS originally in the IRB,founded by clarke,CLARKE WAS executed BY the british after the 1916 rising really the IRA was the FOLLOW ON to the IRB A bunch of terrorist sympathisers who prolonged the suffering in Ireland. > [@](#): > > Neither was a TERRORIST organisation…if so, so were the AMERICANS IN 1760… They were terrorists, at least the founding fathers didn’t blow up kids or innocent civilians. Think Mc Cartney sisters. Btw, its 1776. > [@](#): > > IT seems fashionable to-day for AMERICA to decide who is or isn’t a terrorist,sorry but not in my book, by a long chalk. Haha, great! Attack the only major power who would support the IRA. > [@](#): > > Indeed IRELAND was the only country in EUROPE to keep alive religion,order,education indeed civilation during the dark ages after the retreat of the romans,you know of course the romans never came to IRELAND. I thought Spain was the only country in Europe to keep old knowledge of the Classical Era alive? The Romans had forts in Ireland. [http://www.archaeology.org/9605/newsbriefs/ireland.html](http://www.archaeology.org/9605/newsbriefs/ireland.html) > [@](#): > > this civilisation they brought to scotland and northern england,and you also know that scots was the mistaken name given to scots when the romans meant ireland and it was ireland who colonised scotland fromIONA.,AND BROUGHT TO THEM CIVILISATION AS THEY DID TO THE NORTH OF ENGLAND AS FOR EXAMPLE KING OSWALD OF NORTHUMBRIA WAS EDUCATED BY THE IRISH MONKS IN IONA and that influence went as far as wessex So much civilisation in fact that the Romans had to build Hadrians wall to stop it! 🙂 > [@](#): > > You are totally wrong,there was no elections in the 6 counties BRITIAN picked the 6 counties because of the protestant majority, and this was soley due to the plantation of scot and english planters 300 years earlier. It would be advisable to get an objective history book and the truth will set you free. So let me get this straight, the Northern Irish protestants, who form a majority within that area decided to tell the UK they want to remain part of the Union, and you oppose this? Thats just as bad as the English who oppressed the Irish under their government and military. So you would suggest Ireland be all united even if those wishes are a contradiction to what the ‘settlers’ want? Thats evolution for you :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/62 "2005-04-17T15:01:18Z")
What is it about this thread that seems to encourage broad errors of anachronism? > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > So much civilisation in fact that the Romans had to build Hadrians wall to stop it! Hadrian’s wall was begun in 122. King Oswald did not become king until 634–a hundred years or more after the Romans had abandoned the island. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/63 "2005-04-17T15:03:06Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] _Because they want to remain part of England? They are Protestants who were a favoured majority in NI? And are decended from the UK? Does that answer your question? Its like asking if the Kurds if they should be part of Iraq or independent, its a no brainer._ No it doesn’t answer my question, in fact I have no idea what you’re going on about. Did you even \*read/i] my post? Northern Ireland is an artificially created entity specifically designed to have a Protestant majority, why should we place so much faith in such a contrived situation. By the way I voted for the Good Friday Agreement, which accepts that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until the majority votes otherwise, unlike so much hysteric British press coverage Nationalists had to accept bitter compromises for the sake of peace. But don’t kid yourself that Northern Ireland and its Protestant majority has some sort of god-given, legal or historical right over this part of the island of Ireland they don’t. And I’d be very interested in the average Protestants reaction if told they wanted to remain a part of “England”, typical arrogance on your part. _Of course they did, hence they wanted to remain part of a Prostestant majority state, and what was right next to them? The UK of course :rolleyes:_ And what is also right next to them, in fact sharing the same landmass, why its the Republic of Ireland (shock!). You can take your eyes-rolling and shove it, I was trying to have a civil discussion and you obviously are incapable of that. Here’s a hint, sometimes people are going to disagree with you, be an adult and take their opinions on board without resorting to such juvenile antics. _So let me get this straight, the Northern Irish protestants, who form a majority within that area decided to tell the UK they want to remain part of the Union, and you oppose this? Thats just as bad as the English who oppressed the Irish under their government and military. So you would suggest Ireland be all united even if those wishes are a contradiction to what the ‘settlers’ want? Thats evolution for you :rolleyes:_ You’ve already been told how tenuous an argument this is, why should the wishes of the minority in the are now constituting Northern Ireland (part of the majority of the island as a whole) have been overruled simply to maintain Prostestant supremacy? ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/64 "2005-04-17T15:19:34Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Well, I’m up for a wager 😉 TAFFY give it a rest, and save yourself money,for it’s fairly commonly known how miserable a nation you are…now toddle off to chapel and sing land of our farthers,thats if you know who they are ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/65 "2005-04-17T15:20:03Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > But don’t kid yourself that Northern Ireland and its Protestant majority has some sort of god-given, legal or historical right over this part of the island of Ireland they don’t. Well, they have some. I mean, the Ulster Plantation was settled in 1610, and some of the Protestants living in NI now have ancestors who were there from the first. So, they have as much legitimacy to be there as the United States or Canada have to be there (the first English colony in North America being settled in 1607). ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/66 "2005-04-17T15:31:22Z")
[QUOTE=MidwinterF1] > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > _Because they want to remain part of England? They are Protestants who were a favoured majority in NI? And are decended from the UK? Does that answer your question? Its like asking if the Kurds if they should be part of Iraq or independent, its a no brainer._ > > No it doesn’t answer my question, in fact I have no idea what you’re going on about. Did you even \*read/i] my post? Northern Ireland is an artificially created entity specifically designed to have a Protestant majority, why should we place so much faith in such a contrived situation. By the way I voted for the Good Friday Agreement, which accepts that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until the majority votes otherwise, unlike so much hysteric British press coverage Nationalists had to accept bitter compromises for the sake of peace. But don’t kid yourself that Northern Ireland and its Protestant majority has some sort of god-given, legal or historical right over this part of the island of Ireland they don’t. > > And I’d be very interested in the average Protestants reaction if told they wanted to remain a part of “England”, typical arrogance on your part. > > _Of course they did, hence they wanted to remain part of a Prostestant majority state, and what was right next to them? The UK of course :rolleyes:_ > > And what is also right next to them, in fact sharing the same landmass, why its the Republic of Ireland (shock!). You can take your eyes-rolling and shove it, I was trying to have a civil discussion and you obviously are incapable of that. Here’s a hint, sometimes people are going to disagree with you, be an adult and take their opinions on board without resorting to such juvenile antics. > > _So let me get this straight, the Northern Irish protestants, who form a majority within that area decided to tell the UK they want to remain part of the Union, and you oppose this? Thats just as bad as the English who oppressed the Irish under their government and military. So you would suggest Ireland be all united even if those wishes are a contradiction to what the ‘settlers’ want? Thats evolution for you :rolleyes:_ > > You’ve already been told how tenuous an argument this is, why should the wishes of the minority in the are now constituting Northern Ireland (part of the majority of the island as a whole) have been overruled simply to maintain Prostestant supremacy? Midwinter F1…good on ya mate…but they know their tactics, cowardly intimidation orchestrated across all sites,but then your dealing with AMERICANS,so what can you expect,oh except there is some little welsher who is in there some where…you couldn’t miss him he,ll have a leek up his ass something like that GREAT COMEDIAN MAX BOYCE…WELSHMEN…IRISHMEN WHO COULDN’T SWIM ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/67 "2005-04-17T15:33:44Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, they have some. I mean, the Ulster Plantation was settled in 1610, and some of the Protestants living in NI now have ancestors who were there from the first. So, they have as much legitimacy to be there as the United States or Canada have to be there (the first English colony in North America being settled in 1607). They have a perfect right to be here, they did not have a right to establish a Protestant dominated Protestant state where the Catholic minority was treated as second-class citizens no matter how legitimate their fears of being subsumed into a Catholic dominated United Ireland may have been. The Troubles began not to establish a United Ireland but to attain equal rights for the Catholic population _within_ Northern Ireland, it only became a movement for a United Ireland some time after the conflict had broken out. If the Catholic minority had been treated right, as Captain O’Neill eventually attempted to do and was ousted for his trouble, the existence of Northern Ireland would have been grudgingly accepted, they weren’t and it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/68 "2005-04-17T15:38:09Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Because they want to remain part of England? They are Protestants who were a favoured majority in NI? And are decended from the UK? Does that answer your question? Its like asking if the Kurds if they should be part of Iraq or independent, its a no brainer. > > Of course they did, hence they wanted to remain part of a Prostestant majority state, and what was right next to them? The UK of course :rolleyes: > > Remember since the 9th/11th century IRELAND was one country,one religion,one language,one people. > > One language, one people yep. but one country? Haha, it was a patchwork of different Kingdoms and Lords. And by the way, England was a _Catholic_ country then. > > [http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire700.htm](http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire700.htm) > > [http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1100.htm](http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1100.htm) > > BRITIAN especially since HENRY VIII,sought to destroy IRELAND its language,its religion, its people, BRITIAN started the planation of SCOTS AND ENGLISH PROTESTANTS which meant catholics were driven off their lands, Catholics became non citizens,with no rights whatsoever > > Henry the VIII wasn’t King of Britain, he was king of England. Everything else, yep I agree. > > Someone’s going over the top here. Looks like I need to set this guy straight. Oh look, facts! > > A bunch of terrorist sympathisers who prolonged the suffering in Ireland. > > They were terrorists, at least the founding fathers didn’t blow up kids or innocent civilians. Think Mc Cartney sisters. Btw, its 1776. > > Haha, great! Attack the only major power who would support the IRA. > > I thought Spain was the only country in Europe to keep old knowledge of the Classical Era alive? The Romans had forts in Ireland. > > [Romans in Ireland? - Archaeology Magazine Archive](http://www.archaeology.org/9605/newsbriefs/ireland.html) > > So much civilisation in fact that the Romans had to build Hadrians wall to stop it! 🙂 > > So let me get this straight, the Northern Irish protestants, who form a majority within that area decided to tell the UK they want to remain part of the Union, and you oppose this? Thats just as bad as the English who oppressed the Irish under their government and military. So you would suggest Ireland be all united even if those wishes are a contradiction to what the ‘settlers’ want? Thats evolution for you :rolleyes: Go you back to your tree and perhaps get some history lessons , look at the education i’m going to miss ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/69 "2005-04-17T15:41:32Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, they have some. I mean, the Ulster Plantation was settled in 1610, and some of the Protestants living in NI now have ancestors who were there from the first. So, they have as much legitimacy to be there as the United States or Canada have to be there (the first English colony in North America being settled in 1607). Oh captain amazing …says it all really ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/70 "2005-04-17T16:12:09Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > They have a perfect right to be here, they did not have a right to establish a Protestant dominated Protestant state where the Catholic minority was treated as second-class citizens no matter how legitimate their fears of being subsumed into a Catholic dominated United Ireland may have been. History is full of terrible things, you know. Europeans had no “right” to occupy the Americas or Australia. The Romans had no “rights” to Europe. The Normans’ “right” to England was disputable. They still went ahead and did it. Unfortunately we can’t go back and change history, we have to live with what we have now. And what we have now is a established political entity called Northern Ireland where the majority of the citizens wish to remain part of the UK. These people bear no guilt from being descendants of settlers from 300 years ago, and they had no hand in the partitioning of Ireland. So why should we trample over their rights? Yes, the Catholics of Northern Ireland were discriminated against, but perhaps the Protestants would have been just as badly treated in a united Ireland. We’ll never know. And Ireland as a whole was certainly mistreated by the English. But whatever way it was handled it wouldn’t have been a happy result for everyone. So one thing is for sure, further changes that do not have a majority, democratic support can only makes things worse and terrorist action, such as that followed in the past by the IRA, **cannot** be allowed to use history as a justification. As to the OP: the IRA, regardless of its original motivation, is a terrorist organisation by any reasonable definition of the word. It has no democratic mandate, is responsible to no-one, and in the past had a policy of attacking safe, unrelated, civilian targets as a means of forcing its objectives. During its time it has also picked up a simply criminal element that has no interest in political change and will remain an influence as long as it can hide behind the ‘legitimacy’ of the IRA’s objectives. The murder of Robert McCartney made this plain for everyone to see. ---
**Author:** ![finn007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/90db22/32.png) [@finn007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/finn007)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/71 "2005-04-17T16:17:26Z")
[QUOTE=Tamerlane] In this case ( a generation or two earlier ) said lord was Arnulf of Montgomery, not a de Clare, less someone get confused by my and good **Captain** ’s post. Take your time. I always welcome correction ;). “Take your time. I always welcome correction” Oh know you don’t you little hypocriticall bollix… Sorry dont have much time…i think we left off at STRONGBOW , You know PEMBROKE…well known mercenary of his day,oh but did you know some wanker has traced a lineage of your MR BUSH back to strongbow…WOULD NOT SURPRISE ME WHEN YOU READ STRONGBOW’S CHARACTER…fits perfectly the BUSH FAMILY yep true check it out…and then go check THE STATUTE OF KILKENNY and save a lot of time for your pea brain…oh i know you are not allowed to flame is it…well i left my goodbye with the MOD…over in BBQ IS IT? well the same to you… Just to set you straight,by most historians,the celts from ireland drove out the picts from scotland or over time the picts became assimilated into the irish celtic ways and thro’inter marriage over time became as irish as the irish,same laws, language,etc…Just like the NORMANS.only they came to ireland to conquer,you know mr stronbow and his buddies but over time became more irish than the irish and again thro’ inter marriage etc…spoke irish,adapted ireland as their nation, thats why i refer you to the STATUTE OF KILKENNY. See irish charm works wonders…the came to conquer and were conquered .its just our natural wit humour wisdom and charm…oh you can now send in the **GPPS’** ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/72 "2005-04-17T16:29:08Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > They have a perfect right to be here, they did not have a right to establish a Protestant dominated Protestant state where the Catholic minority was treated as second-class citizens no matter how legitimate their fears of being subsumed into a Catholic dominated United Ireland may have been. And there’s no doubt that the Catholic minority was treated terribly. And if we could change it so that Captain O’Neil prevailed, that would certainly be better (Or go back to the beginning, and make Lord Carson PM instead of Craig) But it’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater to move from that to unification. Isn’t it possible to say, “Ok, let’s have a fully democratic and equal Northern Ireland, where the rights of both the Protestant majority and Catholic minority are protected, still within the UK.” ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/73 "2005-04-17T17:16:39Z")
_Originally posted by Futile Gesture_ _History is full of terrible things, you know. Europeans had no “right” to occupy the Americas or Australia. The Romans had no “rights” to Europe. The Normans’ “right” to England was disputable. They still went ahead and did it._ All those things took place in the dim and distant past, the dismemberment of Ireland occured within living memory. _Unfortunately we can’t go back and change history, we have to live with what we have now._ The past cannot be changed but there is no reason to accept the current situation. _And what we have now is a established political entity called Northern Ireland where the majority of the citizens wish to remain part of the UK. These people bear no guilt from being descendants of settlers from 300 years ago, and they had no hand in the partitioning of Ireland. So why should we trample over their rights?_ Of course they bear no guilt for events several hundred years ago, they do bear “guilt” (and thats such a loaded word) for what has occurred within their lifetime, the attempt to maintain a Protestant dominated state. I am not suggesting we tramble over their rights, what I am suggesting is that there is no good reason why the Nationalist part of Northern Ireland should accept the existence of Northern Ireland as a permenant politically entity and that it should remain within the UK, if this is too change however it should be changed by democratic means, those democratic means only came into existence as a result of the Troubles, before that Northern Ireland had no right to call itself a democracy, it was as much a one-party state as the Soviet Union. _Yes, the Catholics of Northern Ireland were discriminated against, but perhaps the Protestants would have been just as badly treated in a united Ireland._ Perhaps, but as you said, we’ll never know as it didn’t happen. Their is a Protestant minority in the Republic and I’m sure they didn’t appreciate it being such an overtly Catholic state I don’t recall the same sort of official and legitimised discrimination against them as occured in Northern Ireland towards the Catholics. They were not second-class citizens. I am willing to be corrected on this point. _We’ll never know. And Ireland as a whole was certainly mistreated by the English. But whatever way it was handled it wouldn’t have been a happy result for everyone. So one thing is for sure, further changes that do not have a majority, democratic support can only makes things worse and terrorist action, such as that followed in the past by the IRA, **cannot** be allowed to use history as a justification._ The IRA didn’t have to use past history as a justification, the present situation was justification enough. The IRA has now outlived its usefullness and any further progress towards a United Ireland should be by democratic means. _As to the OP: the IRA, regardless of its original motivation, is a terrorist organisation by any reasonable definition of the word. It has no democratic mandate, is responsible to no-one, and in the past had a policy of attacking safe, unrelated, civilian targets as a means of forcing its objectives. During its time it has also picked up a simply criminal element that has no interest in political change and will remain an influence as long as it can hide behind the ‘legitimacy’ of the IRA’s objectives. The murder of Robert McCartney made this plain for everyone to see._ Let me just say that there is no justification for attacking civilian targets. None. That part of the IRA’s campaign is something that everyone involved should be ashamed of. However they didn’t just attack soft targets, the British Army and Loyalist terrorist groups will attest to that. The IRA was one of the most sophesticated and successful terrorist organisations in the world, and when you read memoirs or books by ex-service personelle or high-ranking British politicians its not unusual to see a general grudging admiration even while they despise them. In fact I have noticed that its most often ex-servicemen and Loyalist paramilitaries that have the most open-minded an clear-eyed attitude towards the IRA and the Republican population of Northern Ireland, they may not agree but they can see why they were fighting. The criminalisation of the IRA is a recent phenonemon, post-ceasefire, and is another good reason to see them disbanded. By the way, last November the IRA was ready to disband, the deal had been done, if Ian Paisley hadn’t made a mouth of himself in Ballymena (again) the IRA would be fading into memory right about now. I, and most Catholics don’t want to see the IRA humiliated, humiliating them is by extension humiliating the Catholic community of Northern Ireland and I don’t think English people realise just how touchy a subject that is. In fact I don’t think the English population realises just how ambiguous an attitude most Catholics in Northern Ireland have towards the IRA, a black/white mentality is simply not possible. \*Originally Posted by Captain Amazing Isn’t it possible to say, “Ok, let’s have a fully democratic and equal Northern Ireland, where the rights of both the Protestant majority and Catholic minority are protected, still within the UK.”\* Thats pretty much what we have now, but we had to fight a war to get it, it would not have been freely given. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/74 "2005-04-17T17:36:16Z")
[Moderator Mode] > [@finn007](#): > > Oh know you don’t you little hypocriticall bollix… Direct personal insults are limited to the **BBQ Pit**. Do not do this again in **Great Debates**. (I will note that each of the posts leading up to the one quoted are also pretty much pushing past the edge of civility.) So far, you have posted a lot of bombast and dismissive comments, couched in insulting language. (You have even been misidentifying the targets of your scorn, labelling nearly everyone “American” when the Yanks make up a distinct minority of the posters in this thread.) If you have actual historical evidence for your position (if you have a position other than general rancor), please provide it. I doubt that you and **Ryan\_Liam** , (for example), will ever agree on this topic, but you can better persuade others who are only reading and not posting if you conduct yourself as if this were a debate and not a pub brawl. Passion is welcome, here. Facts and civility are required. [/Moderator Mode] . . . (_Now_ I am posting as a Moderator and not a participant; see the difference?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/75 "2005-04-17T18:13:17Z")
> [@furt](#): > > At the risk of both hijack and insensitivity, I’d be very interested in hearing what sort of disabilty causes one to put words into caps. Spastic Left Pinky Disease, of SLPD. This tragic affliction is a product of our modern computerized existence and some scientists suggest it’s caused by excessive exposure to monitor radiation. The only known treatment is to get out for some fresh air and sunshine. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/76 "2005-04-17T18:41:00Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Through the years some have considered them terrorists and some have considered them freedom fighters. Those are not mutually exclusive categories. “Freedom fighter” is a term that can refer to a given group’s goals; “terrorist” refers to its tactics. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/77 "2005-04-17T19:08:42Z")
> [@finn007](#): > > Sorry IRELAND WAS for at least 8 centuries totally indepentant of britian until it was annexed by force of arms by the ENGLISH… Quite true . . . much longer than 8 centuries, in fact. The Irish Celtic culture existed on the island for centuries before St. Patrick, indeed, for centuries before the Anglo-Saxons invaded Roman Britain. But – and here’s the key point – a **united** independent Ireland has never existed at any time in history. Even when the Irish had a “high king,” he was never more than first among equals and all the petty kingdoms remained effectively independent. Brian Boru might have changed that, but he was killed at the Battle of Clontarf in 1014 and no later high king could match his will or his talent. (And the position of high king was often vacant – a state of affairs that hardly even deserved the designation of an interregnum.) That’s why the English were able to conquer Ireland: There was no central government capable of offering unified resistance; they could play one prince off against another until all were defeated. Unity under British rule is the only political unity Ireland has ever known (and, of course, it no longer exists). Could a united Ireland exist in the future? I’ve just started a new GD thread to discuss that: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6065891#post6065891](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6065891#post6065891) ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/78 "2005-04-17T19:20:22Z")
> [@finn007](#): > > TAFFY give it a rest, and save yourself money,for it’s fairly commonly known how miserable a nation you are…now toddle off to chapel and sing land of our farthers,thats if you know who they are Aww, I was going to get offended by his low-level attempt at racist slurs, then I noticed he’s been banned. And remembered that I’m not Welsh… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/79 "2005-04-17T19:35:21Z")
It’s a pity, I was rather growing to enjoy **finn007’s** Irish command of colorful insults. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/80 "2005-04-17T19:37:17Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Aww, I was going to get offended by his low-level attempt at racist slurs, then I noticed he’s been banned. And remembered that I’m not Welsh… I think Finn007 is a case of “With allies like that who needs enemies”… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674.md?page=5)