# Why isn't the IRA considered a Terrorist Group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674 "2005-04-16T20:45:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/81 "2005-04-17T19:41:02Z")
> [@finn007](#): > > WELSHMEN…IRISHMEN WHO COULDN’T SWIM Actually, I think the prevailing theory is that the Goidelic- or Q-Celtic-speakers of Ireland and the Cymri- or P-Celtic-speakers of pre-Roman Britain resulted from different migrations, the Irish Celts coming from Spain and the British from Gaul. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early\_history\_of\_Ireland#The\_Celts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_Ireland#The_Celts) Irish mythology tells the same story ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians\_(Irish)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_%28Irish%29)). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/82 "2005-04-17T19:54:58Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I thought Spain was the only country in Europe to keep old knowledge of the Classical Era alive? The Romans had forts in Ireland. No, Hibernia was never a Roman province. (There might have been trading outposts, but nothing more.) But after St. Patrick (a Roman Briton) converted the Irish to Christianity (or, at least, began the process), the Irish learned to read and write, and built a lot of monasteries, universities and libraries. Meanwhile, the Roman legions withdrew from Britannia, it was overrun by the pagan Anglo-Saxons, and only the Irish remained to preserve Christianity and classical learning in that part of the world. They ultimate played a role in making the English Christian and literate, and that had some influence on the revival of learning on the Continent (Charlemagne employed an English scholar, Alcuin, in the schools of the “Carolingian Renaissance”). You can read the whole story in _How the Irish Saved Civilization,_ by Thomas Cahill (Anchor, 1996) ([http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385418493/qid=1113767387/sr=2-1/ref=pd\_bbs\_b\_2\_1/104-0117409-2856729](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385418493/qid=1113767387/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-0117409-2856729)). ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/83 "2005-04-17T20:04:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (There might have been trading outposts, but nothing more.) There was one at Stoneyford on the Nore. In the other direction there have also been some suggestions that Irish settlement in Britain may have been partially supported by hard-pressed Roman officials in the waning days of the empire as _foederati_ of a sort - there were sizeable Irish colonies established in Wales and Cornwall in the 4th and 5th centuries. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/84 "2005-04-17T20:31:10Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > There was one at Stoneyford on the Nore. One what? Trading outpost, or military fort? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/85 "2005-04-17T22:23:02Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > Yes, the Catholics of Northern Ireland were discriminated against, but perhaps the Protestants would have been just as badly treated in a united Ireland. Unlike the horrible NI statelet, Ireland guaranteed freedom on religion and religious prejudice in the Constitution. Protestants in the republic while having to deal with individual Catholics idiots did not have to deal with state driven prejudice. > [@](#): > > Religion > > Article 44 > > 1. The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion. > > 2. 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen. > > 2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion. > > 3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status. > > 4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school. > > 5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes. > > 6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation. [http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm](http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/publications/297.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/86 "2005-04-17T23:26:11Z")
> [@](#): > > No it doesn’t answer my question, in fact I have no idea what you’re going on about. Did you even read/i] my post? Northern Ireland is an artificially created entity specifically designed to have a Protestant majority, why should we place so much faith in such a contrived situation. I didn’t put alot of faith into NI, I always knew there was going to be repression and civil conflict, however, the leaders at the time of NI’s creation wanted to remain part of the Union, and now we’re stuck with it whether you like it or not. > [@](#): > > By the way I voted for the Good Friday Agreement, which accepts that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until the majority votes otherwise, unlike so much hysteric British press coverage Nationalists had to accept bitter compromises for the sake of peace. Good, they bombed and killed plenty of citizens, they should pay the price. That goes for any terrorist in the Province. > [@](#): > > But don’t kid yourself that Northern Ireland and its Protestant majority has some sort of god-given, legal or historical right over this part of the island of Ireland they don’t. They’ve been there for hundreds of years, they have as much right as any other citizen. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/87 "2005-04-17T23:33:33Z")
_Originally posted by Ryan Liam_ _I didn’t put alot of faith into NI, I always knew there was going to be repression and civil conflict, however, the leaders at the time of NI’s creation wanted to remain part of the Union, and now we’re stuck with it whether you like it or not._ Thirty years of conflict should tell you that we’re very far from “stuck with it”. _Good, they bombed and killed plenty of citizens, they should pay the price. That goes for any terrorist in the Province._ Prisoner release was part of the Good Friday Agreement which both the Republic and Northern Ireland signed up to. It just grates that you don’t get to fulfill your righteous anger doesn’t it? _They’ve been there for hundreds of years, they have as much right as any other citizen._ Again you don’t appear to have read what I wrote, they have a right to live here, they do not have any particular right to their own little Protestant dominated personal fiefdom. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/88 "2005-04-17T23:41:05Z")
\*Originally posted by a ruggedly handsome Irishman not too far away. By the way I voted for the Good Friday Agreement, which accepts that Northern Ireland will remain part of the UK until the majority votes otherwise, unlike so much hysteric British press coverage Nationalists had to accept bitter compromises for the sake of peace.\* _Originally posted by Ryan\_Liam_ _Good, they bombed and killed plenty of citizens, they should pay the price. That goes for any terrorist in the Province._ I just read this again and I don’t know how I missed it the first time. Are you saying that Nationalists = Terrorists? For anyone else reading I missed an “also” in the above quote, I meant to say Nationalists have also had to accept bitter compromises. And btw Ryan\_Liam do you think we’re entirely happy at having to _live_ with these released prisoners? It was necessary to achieve a peace settlement and so be it. You can work yourself up into a froth if you want but you don’t live here. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/89 "2005-04-18T00:02:25Z")
D’oh! I was thinking of the Irish _Volunteers_! I believe THEY were the pre-cursor to the IRA, right? I mixed the two of them up. Dammit. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/90 "2005-04-18T00:03:56Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One what? Trading outpost, or military fort? A Roman trading post. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/91 "2005-04-18T00:20:14Z")
I just read this again and I don’t know how I missed it the first time. Are you saying that Nationalists = Terrorists? I’m saying for all the people killed in the sectarian violence, its good the IRA had to pay a heavy price. > [@](#): > > And btw Ryan\_Liam do you think we’re entirely happy at having to live with these released prisoners? It was necessary to achieve a peace settlement and so be it. Who said I liked it? They bombed my towns city centre devastated it, they should be locked up forever. > [@](#): > > You can work yourself up into a froth if you want but you don’t live here. Plenty of relatives who did though. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/92 "2005-04-18T00:33:14Z")
_I’m saying for all the people killed in the sectarian violence, its good the IRA had to pay a heavy price._ Its called “compromise”, nobody was going to get what they wanted. _Who said I liked it? They bombed my towns city centre devastated it, they should be locked up forever._ You however don’t have a say in the matter. The IRA did not operate in a vacuum. _Plenty of relatives who did though._ Operative word being “did”. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/93 "2005-04-18T09:38:09Z")
Some interesting stuff in this thread, which for someone brought up on the English press view alone is worth the reading. Additionally, [cheap shot at a banned poster]someone’s sure been demonstrating the difference between a patriot (“one who loves his country”) and a nationalist (“one who hates everyone else’s”), though you’d think someone with such a big phucking chip on his shoulder about Britain would learn to spell it. [/csaabp] ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/94 "2005-04-18T10:06:30Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > And what is also right next to them, in fact sharing the same landmass, why its the Republic of Ireland (shock!) Would it be any different if Ireland (the island) was stuck onto the rest of the British Isles and not isolated. I sometimes wonder if such a fuss is made about uniting the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland because its so easier to talk about the borders of an island in comparison to the borders of countries on the continent? > [@MidwinterF1](#): > > why should the wishes of the minority in the are now constituting Northern Ireland (part of the majority of the island as a whole) have been overruled simply to maintain Prostestant supremacy? Do you mean why should Ireland have been partitioned at the wishes of the Protestant minority? I always thought the issue was more about independence and not about rearranging the borders of a country. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/95 "2005-04-18T10:40:25Z")
_Originally posted by Pushkin_ _Would it be any different if Ireland (the island) was stuck onto the rest of the British Isles and not isolated. I sometimes wonder if such a fuss is made about uniting the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland because its so easier to talk about the borders of an island in comparison to the borders of countries on the continent?_ Well a similar distinction is made when talking about the UK as compared to the European mainland, eg: “We’re an island nation with an independent history”. Ireland is also an island nation with an independent history and has only been partitioned since 1921, an eyeblink in historical terms. _Do you mean why should Ireland have been partitioned at the wishes of the Protestant minority? I always thought the issue was more about independence and not about rearranging the borders of a country._ I’m not entirely sure what you mean in your second sentence. I take exception to the oft repeated phrase that Nationalists should automatically bow to the wishes of the Protestant majority of Northern Ireland in the name of democracy because Northern Ireland was artifically created precisely to _have_ that majority. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/96 "2005-04-18T11:25:04Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > Well a similar distinction is made when talking about the UK as compared to the European mainland, eg: “We’re an island nation with an independent history”. Ireland is also an island nation with an independent history and has only been partitioned since 1921, an eyeblink in historical terms. Just a thought that maybe attitudes would be different on a larger land mass like continental Europe where borders have changed with much more frequency than in the British Isles. > [@MidwinterF1](#): > > I take exception to the oft repeated phrase that Nationalists should automatically bow to the wishes of the Protestant majority of Northern Ireland in the name of democracy because Northern Ireland was artifically created precisely to _have_ that majority. Remembering though that the majority of the population of Northern Ireland voted to decide their own future by way of the Good Friday Agreement. The majority of Nationalists supported it while Unionists didn’t. For the moment Nationalists are probably quite happy to go along with what the Protestant majority want knowing that in years to come birth rates may help them decide otherwise. So not everyone at least in Northern Ireland would take exception to that phrase 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/97 "2005-04-18T13:48:25Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Unlike the horrible NI statelet, Ireland guaranteed freedom on religion and religious prejudice in the Constitution. Protestants in the republic while having to deal with individual Catholics idiots did not have to deal with state driven prejudice. It was easy for the Republic to guarantee freedom of religion, because there were, and are, just a scattering of Protestants, they’re spread out, and not politically active. If the North had been a part of the Republic from the beginning, you’d have a large, geographically concentrated, politically active and millitant religious minority opposed to the Republic, and who knows how the Irish government would have reacted. 12 July would have been interesting. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/98 "2005-04-18T14:02:01Z")
You’ve got to remember that a lot of the people who fought for Ireland’s self determination over the centuries were protestants. I would like to think that protestants in NI would have been treated as any other Irish citizen. De Valera was very insistent on Ireland joining the rest of the developed democratic countries on gaining out independent. When he finally got into power he carried out a very hard and ruthless campaign against former allies who remained in the IRA after the civil war. Yes there would have been problems with regard to the loyalists up north but I can’t see how it could have been worse that what was created by the Unionists. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/99 "2005-04-18T18:46:08Z")
_Originally posted by Pushkin_ _Just a thought that maybe attitudes would be different on a larger land mass like continental Europe where borders have changed with much more frequency than in the British Isles._ You may be correct, but its as common for such conflicts over borders to take place on continents as on islands, eg; The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka or the Shining Path in Peru. The situation in the Balkans is another example. _Remembering though that the majority of the population of Northern Ireland voted to decide their own future by way of the Good Friday Agreement. The majority of Nationalists supported it while Unionists didn’t. For the moment Nationalists are probably quite happy to go along with what the Protestant majority want knowing that in years to come birth rates may help them decide otherwise. So not everyone at least in Northern Ireland would take exception to that phrase 🙂_ As I said earlier I voted for the Good Friday Agreement accepting that any progress for Nationalist or Republican objectives would have to be by democratic means. I’m fairly sure that the higher demographic birthrate in Catholic areas is no longer as large a factor as it once was, Catholics are beginning to have smaller families and I believe the Catholic minority at the last election was found to be substantially smaller than was previously thought (nearer a quarter of the population than a third). I’ll have to check that though as I’m unsure. Also that argument rests on the assumption that all Catholics will vote for a United Ireland which isn’t a given, several of my Catholic friends have declared (quietly) that they would vote to maintain the Union, if only for economic reasons (which is a cold and unromantic view in my opinion not to mention most likely mistaken, they seem to think that the Republic is all donkey drawn carts and farmers but I suppose thats what you get for living as far from the Border as its possible to be and still be in Northern Ireland.) 😃 I take exception to the phrase because its usually implied or outright stated that Catholics had no legitimate reason to turn to violence because Northern Ireland is part of a democracy, until recent times it had absolutely no claim to that title, whether the use of violence was legitimate or not is another argument but the option of change by democratic means was definitely _not_ available. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/100 "2005-04-18T18:47:46Z")
On re-reading that I meant that Island vs Continent = Tamil Tigers vs Shining Path. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674.md?page=6)