# Why isn't the IRA considered a Terrorist Group? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674 "2005-04-16T20:45:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/121 "2005-04-20T07:59:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The British Army was there, ostensibly, to protect peaceful protestors from the violence of rioting protestors and the police. Instead, they joined the rioters and police in inflicting violence on peaceful protestors–actually killing peaceful protestors on Bloody Sunday. But then it wasn’t like every other riot or demonstration ended up the same way in Northern Ireland. The police wouldn’t have been able to keep law and order without help from the Army and it was the Army who went in to take care of all the bombs the IRA and Loyalists so kindly placed in public places… ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/122 "2005-04-20T16:30:56Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > The British Army was there to protect British citizens against percieved terrorist activities. So no, I don’t think it has to pay a price. But the UDA, definately. And the UDA was a _legal_ organisation up until 1992. You see why some people think we weren’t playing on an entirely level playing field? ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/123 "2005-04-20T16:36:35Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > But then it wasn’t like every other riot or demonstration ended up the same way in Northern Ireland. The police wouldn’t have been able to keep law and order without help from the Army and it was the Army who went in to take care of all the bombs the IRA and Loyalists so kindly placed in public places… The ‘Honeymoon’ period between the Catholic population and the British Army came to an end when it became clear that the British authorities were coming down disproportionality hard on the IRA and nationalists/republicans in general, due partly to the fact the IRA was the subversive organisation dedicated to overthrowing the state, but mainly because (and this was a disaster) the British army became subordinate to the Unionist authorities and was therefore not used in an even-handed manner. Eg: the far larger number of raids on Catholic areas, the first wave of internment which lifted only Catholics etc… (I’m sure you know all this but its for the benefit of other readers who may not) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/124 "2005-04-20T17:02:50Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > And the UDA was a _legal_ organisation up until 1992. You see why some people think we weren’t playing on an entirely level playing field? When bombs go off in London, Manchester and Warrington, why do you think they didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/125 "2005-04-20T17:24:51Z")
that makes no sense whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/126 "2005-04-20T17:46:29Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > When bombs go off in London, Manchester and Warrington, why do you think they didn’t? Nope, I don’t get it, try putting that into legible English? ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/127 "2005-04-21T08:49:02Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > And the UDA was a _legal_ organisation up until 1992 Was that one of those technicalities? Like the men released recently when it was found the government didn’t include the RIRA on a list of proscribed organisations? It doesn’t mean that killing someone in their name or on their orders was legal. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/128 "2005-04-21T09:06:41Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Was that one of those technicalities? The people sent to prison purely for IRA membership, and those interned for _suspected_ IRA membership, will hardly see it as a ‘technicality’ that the UDA was able to organise itself in public and with impunity. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/129 "2005-04-21T09:12:32Z")
> [@Pushkin](#): > > Was that one of those technicalities? Like the men released recently when it was found the government didn’t include the RIRA on a list of proscribed organisations? > It doesn’t mean that killing someone in their name or on their orders was legal. No, it meant that membership of the UDA wasn’t illegal, hence they had free right of assembly. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/130 "2005-04-21T12:36:01Z")
> [@TwistofFate](#): > > No, it meant that membership of the UDA wasn’t illegal, hence they had free right of assembly. Wow, that _is_ odd. Was any reason ever given for the length of time it took to have it declared illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/131 "2005-04-21T13:08:30Z")
Little history of the UDA [here:](http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/organ/uorgan.htm#uda) I doubt any reason for their remaining legality was ever publicly forwarded, but it would be plainly obvious that it was in the interest of certain members of the ‘elite’ in local government to have the UDA remain legal for as long as politically possible; they had the support (and membership) of many who were in the legitimate security forces and retained the pretence of non-violence due to the (extremely transparent) use of the UFF as the named separate ‘violent’ organisation. It basically acted as a dismissible cover for what could probably be described as Black Op’s for targetting nationalist / Republican dissidents. ---
**Author:** ![TheSquirrelfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@TheSquirrelfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSquirrelfish)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/132 "2005-04-22T03:19:56Z")
Ok, well the IRA was a terrorist group at one point. Now they are less so because of the connection to Sinn Fein and efforts and statements made towards more peaceful methods of conflict resolution. However, because of the IRA, the UK is considered one of the most experienced countries in the world at dealing with terrorism(the other two big ones are France and of course Israel, each with their own methods of dealing with terrorism). Some parts of the IRA were less than pleased with the bargains struck and did not agree to become peaceful. These parts are still terrorist organizations. I do not believe that the current IRA is a terrorist group but I don’t keep up with current affairs - they may have gone back. I don’t feel the IRA was ever a revolutionary group because of the definition below(it deals with being inclusive). I prefer a definition of terrorist group that includes actively inciting, coordinating or supporting terrorists or terrorist plots(terrorism as violence, usually against civilians, aimed at controlling political action through fear and anger rather than reasoned discourse, definition courtesy of Michael Ignatieff lecture series “The Lesser Evil”). To illustrate the difference from revolutionary warfare I’m going to take the definition of revolutionary warfare from a very good book (New & Old Wars: Organized Violence in a Global Era by Mary Kaldor) “The central objective of revolutionary warfare is the control of territory through gaining support of the local population rather than through capturing territory from enemy forces.” She was using sources such as Mao and Che for that definition and I don’t know their practices but I do feel that it is a good way of putting it. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/133 "2005-04-23T00:35:22Z")
> [@TheSquirrelfish](#): > > I prefer a definition of terrorist group that includes actively inciting, coordinating or supporting terrorists or terrorist plots(terrorism as violence, usually against civilians, aimed at controlling political action through fear and anger rather than reasoned discourse, definition courtesy of Michael Ignatieff lecture series “The Lesser Evil”). To illustrate the difference from revolutionary warfare I’m going to take the definition of revolutionary warfare from a very good book (New & Old Wars: Organized Violence in a Global Era by Mary Kaldor) “The central objective of revolutionary warfare is the control of territory through gaining support of the local population rather than through capturing territory from enemy forces.” She was using sources such as Mao and Che for that definition and I don’t know their practices but I do feel that it is a good way of putting it. The IRA was determined to overthrow the State, wouldn’t that be the definition of a Revolution? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/134 "2005-04-23T00:46:20Z")
> [@MidwinterF1](#): > > The IRA was determined to overthrow the State, wouldn’t that be the definition of a Revolution? They were and are not intent on overthrowing the UK government. So no, it wasn’t about revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/135 "2005-04-23T01:29:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > They were and are not intent on overthrowing the UK government. So no, it wasn’t about revolution. True, though they did try to wipe the entire cabinet out. The Stormont administration was brought down as well, one of their aims. And no, this isn’t IRA cheerleading, I was wondering what constituted a revolution. ---
**Author:** ![TheSquirrelfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@TheSquirrelfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSquirrelfish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/136 "2005-04-23T02:42:59Z")
Well, I proposed a conflict with the goal of winning over the people of the area to your proposed form of government as a revolution. As to why overthrowing a state government is not always a revolution-- the US overthrew Saddam’s Iraqi government but that was not a revolution. I think that the definition of terrorist group is more pertinent to the original question, though. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/137 "2005-04-24T00:58:13Z")
Well, the IRA did at one point plan on, after uniting Ireland, overthrowing the Irish government and setting up a Marxist state, but I’m pretty sure they haven’t been Marxist in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Buran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Buran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buran)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2005, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/138 "2005-04-24T01:05:42Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Well, the IRA did at one point plan on, after uniting Ireland, overthrowing the Irish government and setting up a Marxist state, but I’m pretty sure they haven’t been Marxist in a while. In the early 70’s the IRA split into two organisations, the Provisional IRA (“Provos”) and the Official IRA precisely because a lot of people thought the IRA command was becoming much too left-leaning (among other reasons, such as the command being centered in Dublin with mostly southern members and the failure of said command to send weapons north when Catholic homes where being attacked in Belfast at the start of the Troubles). The Official IRA gradually faded into obscurity with its political wing becoming the Workers Party in the late 70’s and its never really been much of a force in Irish politics. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2005, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674/139 "2005-04-25T08:02:00Z")
> [@TheSquirrelfish](#): > > As to why overthrowing a state government is not always a revolution-- the US overthrew Saddam’s Iraqi government but that was not a revolution The US wanted a new administration in a different country, a revolution to me is an act that changes the government and allows a new group (from that country) to rule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-ira-considered-a-terrorist-group/299674.md?page=6)