# Why isn't the WI recall result being considered a big win for teachers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272 "2012-06-06T15:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/21 "2012-06-06T16:49:22Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Any other freedoms and capacities you want to remove in the name of individual freedom? If it was any other product but labour, the unions would be committing a felony. It is against the law to form a cartel to exert monopolistic control over the supply of a product. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/22 "2012-06-06T16:52:52Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t vote Republican because I’m not a bigot and actually understand the issues. But that’s neither here nor there. 😃 Funny, those are the same reasons I do vote Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/23 "2012-06-06T16:54:12Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Funny, those are the same reasons I do vote Republican. Wait, you vote Republican because I actually understand the issues… that’s kind of petty, innit? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/24 "2012-06-06T16:56:45Z")
> [@Inner Stickler](#): > > No, if income doesn’t increase at the same rate or greater than outgo, the net effect is a lowering of salary. If you are alleging that teachers’ salaries have declined after adjusting for inflation, that’s wrong too. [Cite](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-06-25-teacher-salary-raise_x.htm), [cite](http://www.nea.org/home/14809.htm), [cite](http://www.aft.org/pdfs/teachers/salarysurvey07.pdf). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/25 "2012-06-06T17:01:22Z")
I am opposed to closed shops. But it’s not as simple as people here are making it. The justification for a closed shop is that any individual has little incentive to join a union, because their membership doesn’t add a whole lot to the union’s clout. But they still gain from the activities of the union as a whole. So many people who don’t join a union are essentially free-riders, benefiting from the union’s presence without paying for it. The unions are attempting to forstall this. In reality there are also a lot of people who would prefer that there be no union altogether, and the unions tend to downplay this. But they do also have a point about the free-loaders. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/26 "2012-06-06T17:02:59Z")
**Shodan** , your second cite has the lede “Teachers Take “Pay Cut” as Inflation Outpaces Salaries”. Might be best to read your cites before you post them. Because I will read them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/27 "2012-06-06T17:07:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Remember, current Republicans don’t just want to tighten belts. Many of them literally want to end public schooling. They want to slash teacher compensation until public schools collapse. Generally what I hear from the right wing is complaints about the high cost of administration, not the high cost of teachers. That the overhead is too high, or that extraneous burdens are being put on teachers. But I could be wrong. Can you post a cite? And not some lone nutter, either. A cite from the Republican party leadership that they want to make public schools collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/28 "2012-06-06T17:10:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you are alleging that teachers’ salaries have declined after adjusting for inflation, that’s wrong too. [Cite](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-06-25-teacher-salary-raise_x.htm), [cite](http://www.nea.org/home/14809.htm), [cite](http://www.aft.org/pdfs/teachers/salarysurvey07.pdf). > > Regards, > Shodan [QUOTE=first cite] The average salary increased 2.1% in 2003-04, according to state figures compiled by the National Education Association, the country’s largest teachers union. The inflation rate was 3.3% in 2004. Since 2000, the raise for teachers has ranged from 2.1% to 3.8%. [/quote] Elucidator has already pointed out the problem with your second cite and the third cite is about 2007 which would be interesting if we were in 2008, maybe. And anyway, I wasn’t alleging anything other than that your statement that salaries must trend downwards in order for workers to be paid less is too absolute. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/29 "2012-06-06T17:10:48Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > First of all, I join with **Martin Hyde** in requesting a cite for the claim that Republicans want public education to collapse. If that’s what they want, then why did they increase the budget for the Department of Education so much during the years when they controlled Washington? Pre Tea Party. Many of the sensible Republicans have been primaried out of office. > [@](#): > > Second, the notion that public unions who get higher wages for their members will help the wages of everyone seems to me obviously false. Wages and benefits for government employees have been moving up quite a bit in recent years, which is part of the reason why government budgets at all levels have skyrocketed. ([Cite](http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/library/research-analysis-reports/public-sector-unions-and-rising-costs-employee-compensation), [cite](http://www.lvrj.com/news/public-employees--pay-keeps-rising-97757899.html), [cite](http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/297094/public-employee-unions-gone-wild-patrick-brennan), [cite](http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/12/class-war/singlepage)) Yet Democrats keeps telling me that things have gotten worse for “the 99%” during the same period. What gives? Wages for public employees isn’t outrageously different from the private sector. [Cite](http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/federal-pay-vs-private-sector-compensation/). (My cite is the CBO). I suspect it’s higher, because wages in general are flat for the vast majority of people in America, and public sector workers aren’t up against the same forces that are keeping private sector wages from increasing. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/30 "2012-06-06T17:13:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Generally what I hear from the right wing is complaints about the high cost of administration, not the high cost of teachers. That the overhead is too high, or that extraneous burdens are being put on teachers. But I could be wrong. Can you post a cite? And not some lone nutter, either. A cite from the Republican party leadership that they want to make public schools collapse. A front-runner for the GOP primary called for the destruction of public schools and didn’t get much or any pushback. Also, anyone who is advocating vouchers is advocating at least greatly damaging public schools. Don’t you think that a voucher system that transfers money to private schools is going to damage public education even further? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/31 "2012-06-06T17:18:51Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > A front-runner for the GOP primary called for the destruction of public schools and didn’t get much or any pushback. More details, please. ETA: I will gladly concede that many Libertarians would like to see public education abolished. But that is not the GOP. > [@](#): > > Also, anyone who is advocating vouchers is advocating at least greatly damaging public schools. Don’t you think that a voucher system that transfers money to private schools is going to damage public education even further? No. Competition is good. It might destroy some particular schools, but strengthens the overall system. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/32 "2012-06-06T17:21:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > So? No one denies voluntary union membership makes it weaker. If I ran a one party state in which by law everyone had to be a member of my political party, and then we liberalized and allowed people to choose not to be a member of my party and in fact to start their own parties, my party enrollments would decline and my party would weaken. > > No one is making the point that if people given the choice to leave a union, make that choice, that it wouldn’t weaken the union. > > What you’re not doing is explaining **why that is an individual’s problem**. Why should I as an individual have to be in a union, just because not being in a union would weaken it? Well, I say you should have to vote Republican, because not voting Republican weakens the political candidates I support. > [@Scumpup](#): > > Former teachers union local president here. Union membership is not mandatory in Pennsylvania schools. We’ve had people decline to join on more than one occasion. Typically, there are only two reasons: > > 1. Don’t want to pay the dues. This one is particularly common in teachers who got hired using grant money and who don’t know from one year to the next whether their job will continue to exist. > 2. Political beliefs that include being anti-union. > More than one of these non-union co-workers approached me for official support during my term when they believed they were being poorly treated by administration. They expressed anger and disbelief when I explained that, since they were not members of the bargaining unit, I could not and would not help them. > Freedom to not be part of the union also means the freedom to go it alone when someone with an office decides to target you. Not coincidentally (IMO), none of those folks are still working here. That means something in an area like this where teaching is one of the better jobs. > I spent several years working in Texas early in my career. As many of you know, it is against the law for teachers to unionize there, or at least it was in the late 1980’s. When you are teacher there, every day is “Whimsical Tuesday.” I think **Scumpup** makes the best argument why an individual would want to join a union in an area where unions are allowed. It’s like insurance. You don’t have to buy insurance, but you’ll be damned glad you did when your house catches fire. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/33 "2012-06-06T17:23:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No. Competition is good. It might destroy some particular schools, but strengthens the overall system. I disagree. Public schools have to take everybody. To allow students to take their tax money with them to a private school means that the public schools will be stuck with all the problem children and no money to deal with them. Public money should go only to public schools. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/34 "2012-06-06T17:28:30Z")
Cheese Louise, **John** , how many times have you heard about how teachers are indoctrinating kids with false ideas like evolution? Or the crazy left wing propaganda about how the labor movement was actually about something? If they succeed in removing fact from our education, what would we have left? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/35 "2012-06-06T17:31:25Z")
Short term, some teachers will benefit because they will save an amount of money equal to their union dues. Long term, all teachers will suffer, because the weakened union will not be able to negotiate fair wages and benefits on their behalf. Because of cuts to taxes, the teaching profession in the state will be low-value, and underpaid. Fewer good students will take education and become teachers because of the low pay. The education system as a whole will suffer. Blame will be assigned for the crappy education system. To the teachers of course. So to answer the OP: Yes, some teachers will probably cheer the election. Those teachers will see a temporary increase to their take-home pay, and a long term decline in their standard of living. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/36 "2012-06-06T17:36:29Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Elucidator has already pointed out the problem with your second cite… There isn’t any problem with my second cite, which reads > [@](#): > > Over the past decade, average teacher salaries increased by only 0.2 percent when adjusted for inflation. So Chronos’ rather overblown statement remains false - there is no race to the bottom in teachers’ salaries, and this is nothing like forcing anyone to work for nothing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/37 "2012-06-06T17:39:11Z")
Schools will be able to dictate the terms of teacher employment and say “take it or leave it”. Teachers will be forced to knuckle under or find other employment. What you will wind up with are teachers who either work for the sheer joy of it or simply have no better options available to them. Fewer people will choose teaching as a profession. Quality of education in the state spirals down. If Republicans have their way, we’d have 50 Mississippis out there and high school graduates totally unable to compete in the workplace. Sure, lots of teachers chose not to have union dues taken out. With the miserable wages we pay them, they had to maximize their take home pay. Unable to bargain for wages, they choose not to pay for an emasculated union. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/38 "2012-06-06T17:40:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > More details, please. > > ETA: I will gladly concede that many Libertarians would like to see public education abolished. But that is not the GOP. I meant Santorum: [Santorum And Harvard Anarchist Agree: Public Schools Must Be Abolished](http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2012/02/27/why-public-schools-must-be-abolished/) > [@](#): > > No. Competition is good. It might destroy some particular schools, but strengthens the overall system. Competition is good. But public schools must take everyone. So they can’t compete in any meaningful way, unless the private schools must do so as well. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/39 "2012-06-06T17:42:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I disagree. Public schools have to take everybody. To allow students to take their tax money with them to a private school means that the public schools will be stuck with all the problem children and no money to deal with them. Public money should go only to public schools. And that’s fine. We can disagree about what that effect will be. It doesn’t mean that either of us wants to destroy public schools. **elucidator** : You are correct in pointing out some of the loony things coming from the “the right”. But that doesn’t mean they want to destroy the schools or impoverish teachers. It only means they want to administer the schools the way they want. They want prayer in schools and creationism taught alongside evolution (or instead of it). They look back fondly on a time when that was the case. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/40 "2012-06-06T17:44:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I meant Santorum: [Santorum And Harvard Anarchist Agree: Public Schools Must Be Abolished](http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2012/02/27/why-public-schools-must-be-abolished/) Do you have a cite for Santorum saying that? Since your implied claim that the cite you provided says so is false. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272.md?page=3)