# Why isn't the WI recall result being considered a big win for teachers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272 "2012-06-06T15:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/41 "2012-06-06T17:48:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There isn’t any problem with my second cite, which reads So Chronos’ rather overblown statement remains false - there is no race to the bottom in teachers’ salaries… How is that not a race to the bottom? No raise for ten years? That’s attractive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/42 "2012-06-06T17:49:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I meant Santorum: [Santorum And Harvard Anarchist Agree: Public Schools Must Be Abolished](http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2012/02/27/why-public-schools-must-be-abolished/) You mean this part? > [@](#): > > Mr. Santorum did not say public schools were a bad idea, and he said that there was a role for government help in education. 🙂 I think it’s pretty clear what he is saying-- he wants local control of public schools, not control by the feds or the states. When you have local control, you get to teach creationism in schools. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/43 "2012-06-06T17:55:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When you have local control, you get to teach creationism in schools. Damn good reason for state and federal oversight. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/44 "2012-06-06T17:56:32Z")
No, no, no! They want to teach the controversy! Let the students hear the facts on both sides of the issue, with equal attention paid to both sets of facts! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/45 "2012-06-06T18:01:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > How is that not a race to the bottom? No raise for ten years? That’s attractive. A race to the bottom would be a decrease, not an increase. I mentioned that earlier. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/46 "2012-06-06T18:02:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Damn good reason for state and federal oversight. Not really. You can have a court decision without federal oversight. I’m happy to have local control over schools with the proviso that the constitution cannot be violated. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/47 "2012-06-06T18:03:12Z")
Question for the anti-union folks. Should I have to buy car insurance? Should my employer be allowed to force me to wear a uniform? Can they force me to get a drug-test? Why is union membership, as a condition of employment, any different? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/48 "2012-06-06T18:05:55Z")
The first things you mentioned are all Good Things. Unions are Bad Things. Your question has been answered, you have the right to remain silent. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/49 "2012-06-06T18:07:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Public school teachers never have the option to not belong to a union. […] Yes, in some abstract sense giving them that option is an increase in freedom, but not in any real practical sense. I’m a leftist by European standards, and unionized to boot…and the very concept one could be obligated to belong to an union (and a specific one, no choice on the matter) to get a specific job or work for a specific company is all sort of wrongs : -What about my freedom of association? Why not making mandatory to belong to a political party or a church to get the job while we’re at it? - What if I want to belongs to an union, but doesn’t like the existing one? And several other teachers agree? How comes we can’t create another union besides the existing one? It’s for unions what a one party system is for elections, and equally acceptable. -I understand paying taxes, but how can a private entity (my employer) take money out of my paycheck and hand it out to another private entity (the union) without my consent? In most situations, that’s called racket. Mind you, even though I can’t comprehend how Americans, typically so worried about individual freedoms, ended up accepting such a system, I know that it’s how things work in the USA. But…I still can’t let your statement go. I find your “in some abstract sense” just weird. There’s no nothing abstract about being forcefully enroled in an organization whether you like it or not when the other option is unemployment. And the fees your pay to the union aren’t abstract, either. This is most definitely a very concrete freedom issue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/50 "2012-06-06T18:07:58Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Question for the anti-union folks. I’m not anti-union. Only anti-compulsion > [@](#): > > Should I have to buy car insurance? No. > [@](#): > > Should my employer be allowed to force me to wear a uniform? Yes. > [@](#): > > Can they force me to get a drug-test? Yes. > [@](#): > > Why is union membership, as a condition of employment, any different? Because the union advocates for political causes. And, unlike the insurance analogy you tried to draw, I don’t have a choice of which union to join. Should my employer be allowed to make me join a church as a condition of employment? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/51 "2012-06-06T18:12:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Schools will be able to dictate the terms of teacher employment and say “take it or leave it”. Teachers will be forced to knuckle under or find other employment. What you will wind up with are teachers who either work for the sheer joy of it or simply have no better options available to them. Fewer people will choose teaching as a profession. Quality of education in the state spirals down. If Republicans have their way, we’d have 50 Mississippis out there and high school graduates totally unable to compete in the workplace. There’s an obvious problem with this argument in addition to the many that have already been mentioned. For most of American history, there have been no unions for public school teachers or any other public employees. Until about 40-50 years ago everyone [including liberal Democrats and union leaders](http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions) agreed that the idea of a union negotiating with the government was dangerous nonsense. Some states didn’t let public employees unionize until the 80’s. And yet this non-unionized public workforce did not have any of the dire consequences that you describe. Indeed, America’s public education system was the envy of the world for a long time _until_ the 70’s and 80’s, which happens to be the exact moment when the teachers became unionized. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/52 "2012-06-06T18:12:47Z")
> [@](#): > > …Because the union advocates for political causes. They advocate for political causes? Like, for instance, the right of unions to exist? But the guys who give oodles of money to try and weaken them, they are exempt? That’s some catch, that catch Local 22. Boy, nothing like a level playing field, eh, Big Guy? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/53 "2012-06-06T18:13:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Because the union advocates for political causes. And, unlike the insurance analogy you tried to draw, I don’t have a choice of which union to join. > > Should my employer be allowed to make me join a church as a condition of employment? Of course you have a choice which union to join. You can work at a non-union shop. It seems the Republicans are all about personal choice. So if you don’t like unions, don’t work at a place that has unions. Zomg! ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/54 "2012-06-06T18:20:16Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Indeed, America’s public education system was the envy of the world for a long time _until_ the 70’s and 80’s, which happens to be the exact moment when the teachers became unionized. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/55 "2012-06-06T18:20:55Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Schools will be able to dictate the terms of teacher employment and say “take it or leave it”. Teachers will be forced to knuckle under or find other employment. What you will wind up with are teachers who either work for the sheer joy of it or simply have no better options available to them. Fewer people will choose teaching as a profession. Quality of education in the state spirals down. If Republicans have their way, we’d have 50 Mississippis out there and high school graduates totally unable to compete in the workplace. > > Sure, lots of teachers chose not to have union dues taken out. With the miserable wages we pay them, they had to maximize their take home pay. Unable to bargain for wages, they choose not to pay for an emasculated union. So your contention is without a union wages go in a downward spiral? Then why is it that in many cases non-union workers earn more than union workers to do the same job? How is that explained? Without the union to protect these workers, why aren’t the employers just saying “here are the terms of employment, take it or leave it?” I’ll just go ahead an answer: it’s called the free market of labor. Labor for different tasks has a different value, employers that try to underpay will get poor results, have problems hiring, and problems with quality and productivity. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/56 "2012-06-06T18:22:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Pre Tea Party. Many of the sensible Republicans have been primaried out of office. Again, cite for your claim that “many Republicans want to destroy all public education.” > [@](#): > > Wages for public employees isn’t outrageously different from the private sector. [Cite](http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/30/federal-pay-vs-private-sector-compensation/). (My cite is the CBO). Again, cite for your claim that teachers without unions will have lower wages. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/57 "2012-06-06T18:23:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Also, anyone who is advocating vouchers is advocating at least greatly damaging public schools. Don’t you think that a voucher system that transfers money to private schools is going to damage public education even further? No, it changes the model for education in general. Proponents of the voucher system believe that the current education system is broken and vouchers gives the market an opportunity to fix it. Not arguing whether or not it is feasible. But to just flatly state that “vouchers will harm public education” kind of misses the point. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/58 "2012-06-06T18:24:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Schools will be able to dictate the terms of teacher employment and say “take it or leave it”. Teachers will be forced to knuckle under or find other employment. What you will wind up with are teachers who either work for the sheer joy of it or simply have no better options available to them. Fewer people will choose teaching as a profession. Quality of education in the state spirals down. If Republicans have their way, we’d have 50 Mississippis out there and high school graduates totally unable to compete in the workplace. > > Sure, lots of teachers chose not to have union dues taken out. With the miserable wages we pay them, they had to maximize their take home pay. Unable to bargain for wages, they choose not to pay for an emasculated union. The evidence that higher salaries for teachers leads to better outcomes for students is very poor. This [study (PDF](http://hanushek.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/hanushek%2Brivkin%202004%20BroPapEdu.pdf)) looks at 188 studies of the effect of teacher salaries on student performance. 73% of the studies found no significant effect of teacher salaries on student performance, 20% found a positive effect and 7% found a negative effect. To the extent unionization has an effect on student achievement it is likely to be negative. Unions have traditionally wanted pay for all teachers to be the same. The only way to get a raise as a teacher is more seniority or more education. There is no evidence that teachers with more degrees are better teachers and experience only seems to improve teaching in the first few years. This means that teachers make the similar salaries despite large disparities in effectiveness. Thus good teachers are underpaid and bad teachers are overpaid. There is no financial incentive for mediocre teachers to become good teachers or for bad teachers to improve. Since being a good teacher probably takes more time than being a bad teacher, good teachers earn less per hour than bad teachers. This perverse set of incentives saps morale and lessens student achievement since one of the consistent drivers of student achievements are good teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/59 "2012-06-06T18:29:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Again, cite for your claim that “many Republicans want to destroy all public education.” I already did, didn’t I? > [@](#): > > In the nation’s past, he said, “Most presidents home-schooled their children in the White House. Parents educated their children because it was their responsibility. > > “Yes, the government can help, but the idea that the federal government should be running schools, frankly much less that the state government should be running schools, is anachronistic.” Did he get a lot of pushback from that? > [@](#): > > Again, cite for your claim that teachers without unions will have lower wages. Teachers with unions will have lower wages…since their unions will be gone and they can’t bargain with the same strength. Tell me, market guru, if most of the public-sector teaching workforce has low wages (since the unions can’t defend against budget cuts), why won’t that have an effect on the private sector teachers? Do you think that private sector employers are going to raise wages in response to the public sector cutting them? Yarlp? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/60 "2012-06-06T18:29:34Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Then why is it that in many cases non-union workers earn more than union workers to do the same job? How is that explained? Without the union to protect these workers, why aren’t the employers just saying “here are the terms of employment, take it or leave it?” Can you provide an instance of a non-union school that pays better than a unionized school, serves the same demographic, and is required to accept all students? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272.md?page=4)