# Why isn't the WI recall result being considered a big win for teachers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272 "2012-06-06T15:01:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/81 "2012-06-06T19:07:06Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, no one is telling you that you have to work at a union shop. You don’t wanna work union, get another job. And what’s wrong with being able to not join the union or to join another union _and_ keeping your current job, exactly? Seriously this argument sounds like “love it or leave it”. Maybe you can resign from your current job and/or decline an offered job without it being an issue, but there are many people for whom it will be a serious one. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/82 "2012-06-06T19:09:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, as a matter of fact, you didn’t. You made a claim, but the cite you provided didn’t say what you seemed to be saying it did. > > So, do you have a cite for Santorum calling for the destruction of public schools? If you don’t, then simply admit that you are making false arguments based on no evidence. > > Regards, > Shodan > [@](#): > > In the nation’s past, he said, “Most presidents home-schooled their children in the White House. Parents educated their children because it was their responsibility. > > “Yes, the government can help, but the idea that the federal government should be running schools, frankly much less that the state government should be running schools, is anachronistic.” Doesn’t that sound to you like someone saying no public schools? There are certainly cities that can’t afford schools on their own. What would happen to universal public education then? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/83 "2012-06-06T19:13:37Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And what’s wrong with being able to not join the union or to join another union _and_ keeping your current job, exactly? I’m just trying to turn nonsense Republican rhetoric against them. Obviously in the real world not everyone has the choice to choose where to work. But as for unions, making them voluntary destroys their power. If the union bargains for compensation, then all workers get the benefit. If all workers get the benefit then those that don’t join the union are getting a free ride. People, especially people in an economic recovery, are going to save union dues for short term benefit. But in the long term they will suffer. > [@](#): > > Seriously this argument sounds like “love it or leave it”. Maybe you can resign from your current job and/or decline an offered job without it being an issue, but there are many people for whom it will be a serious one. As I said, I was trying to tailor it to the ideological conservative I was talking to. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/84 "2012-06-06T19:19:25Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Doesn’t that sound to you like someone saying no public schools? No, it sounds like you don’t have a cite, and your claims about Santorum were false. Of course, no one was ever in any doubt of that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/85 "2012-06-06T19:22:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it sounds like you don’t have a cite, and your claims about Santorum were false. > > Of course, no one was ever in any doubt of that. > > Regards, > Shodan I had a cite in my initial comment. > **[Santorum bashes public schools, says they're stuck in factory era](https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-xpm-2012-feb-18-la-pn-santorum-bashes-public-schools-says-theyre-stuck-in-factory-era-20120218-story.html)** > > Santorum bashes public schools, says they're stuck in factory era Here’s another. PM me your address and I’ll read it to you whilst you sit on my lap. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/86 "2012-06-06T19:25:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Ahem, if I have employees, I want them to have a good wage. I also want them to be protected from mindless slash-and-cut taxes elected officials that think public schools are a waste of money. You still don’t address the point at all. There’s far more than just “mindless slash-and-cut taxes” that can lead to massive budget shortfalls. States can have their population get older a lot faster than they expected (when young people leave disproportionately), states can have major employers leave, can have major industries collapse. One major factory or mine going bust can significantly impact the taxes the State pulls in year to year. Instead of us being empowered to periodically adjust how we compensate our employees, you’re advocating for a system in which a small group of public servants can hold the entire government hostage. To make us unable to respond to changes in economic client and instead be forced to continue providing things like pensions with only a 1% employee contribution (I know a few State government retirement plans, and the ones in Virginia, Ohio, and WV all had higher contribution rates. I believe Ohio’s is actually 10%.) Governments aren’t just really big corporations. They fund and provide services to the benefit of all of society, and if government is hit with cash shortfalls (which can happen even to Democrats who aren’t just willy nilly “slashing taxes”) then if you insist government be beholden to public sector unions you’re basically mandating that no matter what happens we never change employee benefits but instead just raise taxes higher and higher. That’s the government equivalent of crony capitalism–it’s kleptocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/87 "2012-06-06T19:28:09Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m just trying to turn nonsense Republican rhetoric against them. Obviously in the real world not everyone has the choice to choose where to work. That’s what is so embarrassing about your arguments. None of the conservatives here are making the points you are trying to “turn around” on us. I don’t know of any conservatives on this forums who feels employers should have unlimited power and if you don’t like it, you should leave it. I tend to support pretty much all workplace laws that currently exist, for example. > [@](#): > > But as for unions, making them voluntary destroys their power. If the union bargains for compensation, then all workers get the benefit. If all workers get the benefit then those that don’t join the union are getting a free ride. That’s actually bullshit. You do realize that Europe has tons of unions and they are mostly all voluntary and mostly all very powerful. Making them voluntary makes them accountable. Making them involuntary makes them unaccountable to their members and thus provides no means to stop them from just becoming vehicles to enrich union leadership or to act out on political issues to support the wider labor movement with no concern about the members they themselves are supposed to represent. **Clairobscur** was dead on when he said mandatory membership in a single union is akin to mandatory membership in a single political party. No one denies that it’s good for the union, but it’s very debatable as to whether or not it’s good for the _workers_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/88 "2012-06-06T19:32:26Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t vote Republican because I’m not a bigot and actually understand the issues. But that’s neither here nor there. 😃 It’s certainly not “here,” given the errors and misperceptions you make in this post. > [@](#): > > Remember, current Republicans don’t just want to tighten belts. Many of them literally want to end public schooling. They want to slash teacher compensation until public schools collapse. Cite that this is a goal with any significant Republican backing. > [@](#): > > Also, remember that no one said you have to work for a union shop. The teacher had freedom to not sign up at a place where union membership was required. Plenty of freedom there. Now you have more freedom. You can work for a school district and not be a part of the union, or work for a school district and be a part of the union, or not work for them at all! Lots of choices. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/89 "2012-06-06T19:33:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I had a cite in my initial comment. > > [Santorum bashes public schools, says they're stuck in factory era](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-santorum-bashes-public-schools-says-theyre-stuck-in-factory-era-20120218,0,4939016.story) > > Here’s another. PM me your address and I’ll read it to you whilst you sit on my lap. He never explicitly is quoted as saying he wants to abolish public schools. And this is from a candidate who received very little support in the primary. I’m still waiting along with **Shodan** for a cite to back up your preposterous claims. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/90 "2012-06-06T19:41:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I had a cite in my initial comment. > > [Santorum bashes public schools, says they're stuck in factory era](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-santorum-bashes-public-schools-says-theyre-stuck-in-factory-era-20120218,0,4939016.story) > > Here’s another. PM me your address and I’ll read it to you whilst you sit on my lap. That’s a reference to the same story, and it still doesn’t say what you claim. Look, you were wrong, and your position is not based on facts. Just admit it and move on. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/91 "2012-06-06T19:48:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Cite that this is a goal with any significant Republican backing. Depends on what you think is significant, I suppose. There are PACs that are pushing for it: [http://thinkprogress.org/education/2011/07/11/265663/voucher-tea-party-go-away/](http://thinkprogress.org/education/2011/07/11/265663/voucher-tea-party-go-away/) > [@](#): > > “We think public schools should go away,’’ says Teri Adams, the head of the Independence Hall Tea Party and a leading advocate — both in New Jersey and Pennsylvania — of passage of school voucher bills. The tea party operates in those two states and Delaware. They should “go away,” she says, because “they are hurting our children.’’ […] Adams says the current voucher program “discriminates” against wealthier students by providing public subsidies only to inner-city children in allegedly failing schools. Her group’s e-mails pushing vouchers caught the attention of James Kovalcin of South Brunswick, a retired public school teacher who asked Adams for clarification. She responded via email: “Our ultimate goal is to shut down public schools and have private schools only, eventually returning responsibility for payment to parents and private charities. It’s going to happen piecemeal and not overnight. It took us years to get into this mess and it’s going to take years to get out of it.” > [@](#): > > Now you have more freedom. You can work for a school district and not be a part of the union, or work for a school district and be a part of the union, or not work for them at all! Lots of choices. Why not repeal the driving laws? FREEDOM!!!11111gibson ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/92 "2012-06-06T19:52:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s a reference to the same story, and it still doesn’t say what you claim. > > Look, you were wrong, and your position is not based on facts. Just admit it and move on. > > Regards, > Shodan So, this means you won’t let me read it to you? > [@](#): > > In the nation’s past, he said, “Most presidents homeschooled their children in the White House.… Parents educated their children because it was their responsibility.” He’s talking about homeschooling there. > [@](#): > > “Yes, the government can help,” he continued, “but the idea that the federal government should be running schools, frankly much less that the state government should be running schools, is anachronistic.” No govt or state money. Which means small towns will have to put their own schools together, right? Which means there won’t be small town schools in many places. > [@](#): > > He said it is an artifact of the Industrial Revolution, “when people came off the farms where they did homeschool or had a little neighborhood school, and into these big factories … called public schools.” > > While industry has evolved, public schools remain stuck in the factory era, he said, “back in the age of Henry Ford. You get what we give you. One color, two models. It wouldn’t work for Henry Ford today, and it won’t work for America today.“ So he’s against public schools. Or factories. If only I could understand what he’s getting at here… if only. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/93 "2012-06-06T20:02:24Z")
The race to the bottom isn’t just in salaries, it’s in working conditions also. To give a concrete, real-world example: My mom worked as a public-school teacher until her retirement. In the event of a bomb threat called in to a school, it was the district’s policy that the teachers would escort their students outside, and then all of the teachers were to go back into the building to look for the bomb. Without, of course, any of the training or safety equipment that professional bomb squads have. The school district literally regarded the teachers as expendable bomb-fodder. Even the military doesn’t do that any more. This is the way teachers get treated when unions are working as hard as they can on their behalf. You can’t just say “well unions have served their purpose, they need to go away now”, because they’re _still_ dealing with insanity like this. Don’t tell me that employers will just play nice if the unions are neutered, because they won’t play nice even with the unions. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/94 "2012-06-06T20:21:53Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Well, I’d venture that it is the point. A public school that suddenly loses 25% of its income and 25% of its students isn’t going to do very well. Some costs aren’t directly divisible on a per-student basis. Even if you have 25% fewer students, you still have to mow the whole lawn. > > I’d reckon that it’s just _starve the beast_, with a twist of _give money to religious institutions_. You’re stuck on your paradigm. If vouchers exist for everyone, everyone has the choice. Bad schools should shut down and good schools flourish. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/95 "2012-06-06T20:46:25Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > You’re stuck on your paradigm. If vouchers exist for everyone, everyone has the choice. But the questions is can the _good_ schools reject students they don’t want? If they can be rejected, then they don’t _really_ have a choice. And will the vouchers actually cover the price of tuition? If not, a school can still reject the kids from poorer families, ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/96 "2012-06-06T21:46:44Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No govt or state money. You need to find a cite where Santorum says there should be no government money going to schools. Because he says exactly the opposite in the snippet you posted - he says explicitly that the public schools can be helped by the government. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/97 "2012-06-06T22:09:28Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I never made the claim that non-union teachers make more money than unionized teachers. I just said that I know of many examples in which non-union labor makes more than union labor . In other words, then, your assertion had fuck-all to do with the topic under discussion?If you wish to take part in the conversation, do try to make it the same conversation everybody else is having. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/98 "2012-06-06T22:20:20Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Question for the anti-union folks. Should I have to buy car insurance? Should my employer be allowed to force me to wear a uniform? Can they force me to get a drug-test? Why is union membership, as a condition of employment, any different? Because unions support Democrats. Might as well cut to the chase. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/99 "2012-06-07T00:21:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You need to find a cite where Santorum says there should be no government money going to schools. Because he says exactly the opposite in the snippet you posted - he says explicitly that the public schools can be helped by the government. > > Regards, > Shodan He said the government can help. I take that as him saying that he can take government money to home-school his kids. [Which he actually did in the past.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/02/rick-santorum-home-schooling-education_n_1315794.html) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272/100 "2012-06-07T01:10:20Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > In other words, then, your assertion had fuck-all to do with the topic under discussion?If you wish to take part in the conversation, do try to make it the same conversation everybody else is having. It had everything to do with the post I was responding to, someone makes the claim that de-unionization results in a downward spiral of wages. I simply pointed out that that is not universally true. If you don’t think that has “fuck-all” to do with the conversation then I posit you don’t understand the conversation, were ignorant as to its flow and rhythm and were unable to follow along from the cheap seats. If you’d like me to support my original assertion: that non-union labor is not always less compensated than union labor, I’m all for it. But I will not dance through various hoops you set up just to appease you. I make the claim, I back it up, but I don’t back up claims I don’t make. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-isnt-the-wi-recall-result-being-considered-a-big-win-for-teachers/624272.md?page=6)