# Why Japan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2007, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631 "2007-02-10T18:00:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/41 "2007-02-17T00:39:05Z")
[QUOTE=jimmmy] Well if you are going to dismiss two cites that say China was the most advanced Society on earth at the time (~1430) as “not supporting my position very well" I am not sure what I cites I can possibly provide. I guess I would say look at ~1650 when I think Japan was much, much closer to catching China but are not - quite- there yet – they are starting to use Money in internal commerce and are still internationally isolated using trade mainly to buy guns. They have lost a War to China (really, to Korea). In Maritime technology (where China was roughly the equal of Europe in the 1500s and Japan was not Oceangoing) China has dismantled the fleets but is running a sophisticated semi-meritocracy for its bureaucracy while Japan was truly feudal, and using printing presses while the Japanese used (beautiful) calligraphy and has a bustling internal and international trade [/QUOTE] This is totally wrong\* as written in that it sloppily mixes two timelines. I rushed it & went out to dinner and then spent dinner thinking about this and rushing back – showing that I am spending way too much time on this and taking it far too seriously – kidding but not joking. I won’t punk out and will keep going with this thread. But dang – I wonder about me sometimes. \* [_e.g. Most of the Japan stuff was 1680 but by then the War in Korea was almost 80 years old and they had been exposed to printing presses there & the China stuff is all over the board earlier. So it is just a mess of a pos_t.] I guesss what I am ultimately saying here – once it was pointed out to me **Not only the 20th Century** - at which any _SANE_ person would have said “OK, I guess I misunderstood” is: from Homo Halibis until about 1700ish China was more advanced than Japan \*in business, Technology, economics etc. \*There was a period of apporx 150ish years when they were about equal, then from about the mid-1850’s on Japan began to pull away from China. After WWII it began to pull away from the rest of the World in ways other than Military (which it had already done before). I just got babystepped in like Vietnam/Iraq and can’t get out ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/42 "2007-02-17T12:41:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sofaspud] The rest I can see the problem with, but what’s bad about #3? Are you suggesting that, for example, tenure is a better point on which to evaluate? 😕 [/QUOTE] Ratings are based on charm/sucking-up, not job performance. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/43 "2007-02-17T13:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Those states were not _colonized_, however, so much as _settled_. The indigenous habitants were for the most part exterminated and replaced with immigrants, who built entirely new nations in the images of existing, successful nations. [/QUOTE] You and I have a problem with semantics. I define ‘colony’ as mass migration and becoming dominant - you define ‘settlement’ as pretty much the same thing, probably because you want to redefine ‘colonization’ ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/44 "2007-02-17T13:08:30Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Those states were not _colonized_, however, so much as _settled_. The indigenous habitants were for the most part exterminated and replaced with immigrants, who built entirely new nations in the images of existing, successful nations. [/QUOTE] What about New Zealand? Stable, prosperous, first world country, colonised in every sense of the word by Europeans, who, by and large, got on pretty well with the natives. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/45 "2007-02-18T10:44:08Z")
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield] What about New Zealand? Stable, prosperous, first world country, colonised in every sense of the word by Europeans, who, by and large, got on pretty well with the natives. [/QUOTE] Mind you the ‘natives’ were invaders themselves, who had eaten the aboriginal population. Could it be that the Mauris were coastal, so they did not mind what the Europeans got up to in the interior ? Maybe some sort of symbiosis ? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/46 "2007-02-18T12:16:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sleel] You either belong to a _kisha kurabu_ (reporter club), where you are fed news by government officials and ministers, and you don’t piss anyone off, or you don’t get news. [/quote] Ah yes. I can alway spot a scholar when they quote the kisha system. This separates them from the newbies. Of course, you’re going to have to take points off the rant for not mentioning the bad teeth which you see over here. Of course, you don’t see as much of that as you did 25 years ago, when I was first over, but this poster was likely still quite young, so we’ll not knock that many points off. No mention of a national sport of nearly naked men slapping each other around a ring, or school teachers getting busted for taking pictures of their students’ underwear or parking fine which are outragous. Trains which are too crowded and gas bills which are too high. /highjack. So, we’re so, so impressed **Steel** , you actually found someting wrong with Japan. How long did it take you? It takes most newbies two or three weeks. I presume you’be been here at least that long, maybe more. Four weeks? > [@](#): > > Some background reading I found valuable: > > [Dogs and Demons](http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Demons-Tales-Modern-Japan/dp/0809039435) > > [The Enigma of Japanese Power](http://www.amazon.com/Enigma-Japanese-Power-Politics-Stateless/dp/0679728023) > > [Japan: A Reinterpretation](http://www.amazon.com/Japan-Reinterpretation-Patrick-Smith/dp/0679745114/ref=pd_sim_b_4/104-0425080-5916747) Cool. You’re literate. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/47 "2007-02-18T12:51:20Z")
Where does Singapore fit in? It’s certainly not a democracy, at least when you scratch below the surface. Yet the standard of living and GDP is very high? Of course it’s also a small city state rather than a big country. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/48 "2007-02-18T12:57:25Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] Mind you the ‘natives’ were invaders themselves, who had eaten the aboriginal population. [/quote] So I often hear from people on Teh Intarweb. However, according to the Wikipedia articles on [Maori](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maori) (as well as all the stuff I learnt and read up on whilst living in New Zealand), there was no “Aboriginal” population in NZ prior to the arrival of the Maori. The whole “The Maoris ate the original inhabitants of NZ!” thing comes from an incident in 1835 when a charted ship full of armed Maori warriors arrived in the Chatham Islands and proceeded to do all sorts of rather nasty and unpleasant things to the [Moriori](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori), the Native inhabitants of the Chatham Islands. > [@](#): > > Could it be that the Mauris were coastal, so they did not mind what the Europeans got up to in the interior ? Maybe some sort of symbiosis ? New Zealand isn’t an especially wide country- you can drive from one side of the South Island to the other (say, from Christchurch to Greymouth) in about three hours. I think the Maori had several factors running in their favour, including a willingness to adopt European weapons and tools (there are several reports from British Soldiers during the Maori Land Wars expressing surprise that the Natives could shoot as well as they!) and the fact that New Zealand was a long, long, long way from anywhere, with no notable natural resources except Timber, and there was no real reason to oppress the locals if they could be traded with instead. Basically, aside from some unpleasantness in the North Island in the 1860s, the Maori and the British got on pretty well, in part because the Maori wanted European goods, and the British Settlers respected the Maori as “Noble Savages” and basically, as fellow people. It’s a bit hard to reconcile what happened in Australia (deliberate attempts to wipe out the natives) with what happened in New Zealand (treaties, trading, generally living peacefully with the natives), though… ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631/49 "2007-02-18T14:18:46Z")
@Martini Enfield It is hard to believe that there were no aboriginals, but your Chatham Islands stuff is interesting. Three hours drive on a decent road is quite a trek by foot. I appreciate what you say about the Aboriginals in Australia, not pleasant, certainly not by our current standards, my limited understanding is that they did not understand that a sheep was private property and the settlers imposed harsh rules. Oz is a place I’ve never been to, so I really don’t know the current situation. Possibly you’ll be amused by this, in South Africa, deserters and general absconders nipped into the interior and intermarried with various tribes, one of which was the Griquas. They rode horses, used guns and wore leather trousers. When the Matabele attacked them (a semi renegade branch of Zulus) they kicked jack sh/t out of their impis. It has always amused me, an example of synergy rather than domination or genocide. Yo, I can cite the book: [Other Non-Fiction - PATH OF BLOOD BY PETER BECKER FOUNDER OF THE MATABELE was sold for R55.00 on 3 Feb at 13:30 by Klaas47 in Cape Town (ID:3093362)](http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/jsp/item/Item.jsp?Trade_TradeId=3093362) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-japan/391631.md?page=2)