# Why Jesus is not God and can't be God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115 "2013-08-01T23:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/21 "2013-08-02T16:14:17Z")
I have. The Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was actually the archangel Michael. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/22 "2013-08-02T16:17:47Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I have. The Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was actually the archangel Michael. You a JW, **ruben4ruben?** ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/23 "2013-08-02T16:38:31Z")
… and, having checked, the Mormons believe Jesus to have been an angel, and brother to Satan. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/24 "2013-08-02T17:02:15Z")
**ruben4ruben** , why should I accept your interpretation of Judeo-Christian mythology over the long considered and debated interpretation from an established church? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/25 "2013-08-02T17:08:37Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > … and, having checked, the Mormons believe Jesus to have been an angel, and brother to Satan. That would have made it easier for Christ to resist his Temptations. “Nice try, bro! You tricked me enough when we were little!” ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/26 "2013-08-02T17:11:44Z")
The Gospels themselves seem to indicate an interpretive change in Christology during the Apostolic period. Mark, for example, shows some signs of adoptionist theology (no birth/origin story like Matthew, Luke, or John; early manuscripts omit “Son of God” in 1:1; the centurion’s declaration in 15:39 looks like an awkward addition), while John and the Johannine corpus seem to go out of their way to emphasize Jesus’ eternal nature as Son of God (as if they’re arguing against an adversary whose works are now lost). Now, I personally do not believe Jesus was divine. So for me, the best interpretation of this matter is that opinion changed over the 60 or so years of the Apostolic Age, the “Son of God” position mostly won out, and that was used to rationalize difficult NT passages written from an earlier time. The Arian controversy revived some elements of the older interpretation of Christ, grafted on a cosmology which seemed to fit that interpretation, and this became a minor contender with the orthodox position at least thru the 4th century, when it was pretty strongly repressed in the Greco-Roman world. That’s about all that can be said; arguing which one is “right” is like deciding who is the most glamorous actress. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/27 "2013-08-02T17:19:04Z")
> [@CJJ](#): > > . . . (as if they’re arguing against an adversary whose works are now lost). Come to think of it, I always got that impression from the story of the Baptism of Christ. “I have need to be baptized of you, and you come to me?” said John the Baptist; and Jesus replies “Let it be so for now,” that it’s just a matter of proper form. And, “He [John] was not the Light but came to bear witness to the Light,” and John spoke of a greater one to come “whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.” All sounds like stuff put in to refute John’s followers, who were around at the time (and are still around in some form – [see](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_baptist#Mandaeans) [Mandeans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandeans)), and who thought **John** was the Messiah, and everybody knows **Jesus** went to **John** for baptism and not the other way around, so there! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/28 "2013-08-02T17:29:56Z")
Because EVERYONE is God. Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/29 "2013-08-02T17:31:33Z")
In John P. Meier’s _A Marginal Jew_ (vol. I), he makes a very compelling case for Jesus having been John the Baptist’s disciple, who had his own vision and mission. Some of Jesus’s circle of twelve may also have been former students of John the Baptist. It’s worth noting Jesus didn’t really start his ministry until John was imprisoned. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/30 "2013-08-02T17:38:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So Jesus is neither God nor a man, but an **angel?** Never heard that one before. Angelos Christos. I did hear of that before. The concept existed in early christianity, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/31 "2013-08-02T17:53:29Z")
Let’s start with [the first chapter of John](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=NIV): > [@](#): > > 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then later on, to make it clear who the Word was, > [@](#): > > 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. And just to make it clear, > [@](#): > > 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. So Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God, and Jesus is himself God. Moving on to [John 10:30](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2010:30&version=NIV), > [@](#): > > 30 I and the Father are one. Later on, in [John 20:28-29](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&version=NIV), we have Thomas’ declaration: > [@](#): > > 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” > > 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Now, obviously, of the four Evangelists, John is the one who focuses most on Jesus’ divinity. But it’s seen in the others, as well. **Skammer** has already quoted Jesus as identifying himself with the Tetragramaton, in [Mark 14:62](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark%2014:60-64&version=NIV). ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/32 "2013-08-02T20:21:25Z")
Many of you are seeing Biblical verses that explain, or at least pertain, to the “mysterious Trinity”, but you all seem to be missing the point. The word “God” is like the word “Human”. If three fellows walked up and each said, “I am Human”, there would be no confusion. God, Yahweh, Elohim, pick any word you like … it’s like Star Trek’s “Q”. There are several omnipotent entities that are “Q”. They will each say, “I am Q”. The Father is Q. Jesus is Q. Holy Ghost is Q. Floyd is Human. Richard is Human. Henry is Human. It’s essentially a species term. Same as saying “I am a God.” This seems obvious to me when reading the Bible. Yeah, I know scholars will disagree, they disagree with each other, too. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/33 "2013-08-02T20:40:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You a JW, **ruben4ruben?** He’s said so in other threads. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/34 "2013-08-02T21:20:11Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > I don’t mind you insulting me, as a real disciple of Jesus Christ i am used to insults and threats. No surprise that’s all there is offered instead of solid answers and _biblical_ support for beliefs. > > So please keep insulting me and not actually addressing the issue. I’ll take your insults all day. I think this is a first - not a poster so far has actually insulted OR threatened you - several have started to address your ‘facts’ - so you’re complaining ‘in advance’ for insults and threats that haven’t happened. Its as if you’re not even bothering to read the responses - you’re just parroting pre-prepared posts of what you think will happen. 90% of the first post is regurgitated (word for word) WT literature - atleast you learned from the last time to add a little of your own to keep it from being a straight copy/paste. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/35 "2013-08-02T21:29:24Z")
I’m not sure what this thread is really about. The OP is arguing that, among 66 (or 73) mostly unrelated ancient books, written at vastly different times but at least 2000 years ago, by several dozen people, none of whom we know for sure, and none of whom were eyewitnesses to the events described, have contradictions and serious logic fails? Amazing! Talk about an exercise in futility. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/36 "2013-08-02T21:35:51Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > … and, having checked, the Mormons believe Jesus to have been an angel, and brother to Satan. Worth noting: Mormons have a different concept of “angel” than mainstream Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/37 "2013-08-02T21:53:34Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > Worth noting: Mormons have a different concept of “angel” than mainstream Christianity. They seem to have a different concept of **everything**. . . ---
**Author:** ![AdamF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/adamf/32/6246_2.png) [@AdamF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdamF)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/38 "2013-08-02T21:57:25Z")
1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.” Seems fairly clear to me. If you go for literal interpretation of the Bible, you can’t really argue with the above quote. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/39 "2013-08-02T22:16:32Z")
> [@AdamF](#): > > 1 John 5:7 > “For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.” > > Seems fairly clear to me. If you go for literal interpretation of the Bible, you can’t really argue with the above quote. Except that 1 John 5:7-8, the Johannine Comma, doesn’t appear in older manuscripts. The only known source older than the 12th Century is a Latin treatise of the 4th Century entitled _Liber apologeticus_. ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/40 "2013-08-03T18:57:03Z")
Sorry everybody I’ve been busy since my last post. Got a 3-day JW convention this weekend. (God’s word is Truth convention) I got back and had to look after my new kitten and tidy my place. Haven’t had dinner yet. Now, without trying to be hasty or impolite I’ll quickly ask 1 simple question in 2 parts for now. This because in my original post i believe I’ve mentioned this but nobody picked up or answered. I have never ever gotten an answer from anyone about this issue that proves Jesus is not God Almighty. So far in this topic once again people are mostly avoiding the most visible proof. So here goes: \*\*QUESTION: a)\*\*If Jesus is God Almighty, WHOM is he praying to and begging for help in so many verses like most of John chapter 17? (is God schizophrenic or autistic and thus talking to himself all the time? \*\*b)\*\*From whom does Jesus beg the following in **Matthew 26:39**? (literally begging on his **knees** ) _ **Matthew 26:39** _ " **And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will"** _King James Version_: “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” _American Standard Version_: “And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” - 1599 Geneva Bible\*: “So he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, [a]let this \*\*cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.” _New Revised Standard Catholic Version_: “And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not what I want but what you want.” _The Message_: “Going a little ahead, he fell on his face, praying, My Father, if there is any way, get me out of this. But please, not what I want. You, what do you want?” Simple question isn’t it? Now anybody feel free to explain it to the rest of us. Gotta eat, chill and prepare for the final day of my convention now. I’ll try to ask another very simple question tomorrow when i get home. Take care, Ruben. PS Catholics need not answer as i already know the official Vatican answer to this one. As i mentioned before the official Roman Catholic stance is that Trinity is a mystery and can not be explained. I can respect that honesty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115.md?page=3)