# Why Jesus is not God and can't be God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115 "2013-08-01T23:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/81 "2013-08-06T01:39:53Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Hmm, I don’t think I’ve really considered that before. I’ll disagree with you when you say that the verse (Mark 13:32 I assume) implies that the risen Jesus continues to be ignorant “concerning that day or hour.” At least in English, the verse is in the present tense, and could easily mean that Jesus did not know _at that time_, but could have been restored to full knowledge/omniscience after his resurrection or ascension. I think I’ve always unconsciously assumed that the risen Christ shared full knowledge with God the Father (and the HS). I’m willing to bet volumes have been written on the question though. I’d never thought about it as applying only at the time it was written. That could work. And, while I’m sure you’re right and volumes have been written on it, I’ve only ever heard one analysis of it – and that was Harold Camping, who simply argued that the “Son” in that verse meant Satan, not Jesus. (!) (Harold Camping is one of the more interesting theologians of our time. He is and was wrong as wrong can be, but I always found him to be honorable in intent. He was striving, as best he could, to defend a sola scriptura interpretation. This led him to repeated blunders in prophesying the exact date of the Second Coming, which, somehow, never actually happened on the days he said they would. These failures always amazed him. He really did believe he had figured out the Bible’s hidden numerology.) > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I hadn’t heard that one. You’re right, it is a very pretty analogy. I’ll be thinking about that one. “God as an author” comes, I think, from a Russian novelist of the Dostoevsky era, but who, I have never been able to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/82 "2013-08-06T01:48:55Z")
**ruben4ruben** , I can’t help but notice that you have failed to respond to anyone who has pointed out the verses in Scripture that _support_ a Trinitarian understanding. You’ve just called us heretics or worse. Worse yet, you have confused and conflated Trinitarianism with polytheism. Which, understandably, is a common and easy mistake. But no one who worships the Trinity is going to recognize our God in your clumsy strawman caricature. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/83 "2013-08-06T02:47:03Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > … and, having checked, the Mormons believe Jesus to have been an angel, and brother to Satan. There has been an incredible evolution in Mormon belief about the nature of Jesus. Joseph Smith started off with a fairly typical protestant belief, and the Book of Mormon, as it was originally published in 1830 reflected this. He seemed to have believed that God the Father and Jesus were one. Rather than type it all out, I’ll just quote this. > [@](#): > > It will further demonstrate that the doctrine of God preached and believed before 1835 was essentially trinitarian, with God the Father seen as an absolute personage of Spirit, Jesus Christ as a personage of tabernacle, and the Holy Ghost as an impersonal spiritual member of the Godhead. > > The Book of Mormon tended to define God as an absolute personage of spirit who, clothed in flesh, revealed himself in Jesus Christ. > > (. . .) > > The Book of Mormon declared that Mary “is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh,” which as James Allen and Richard Howard have pointed out was changed in 1837 to “mother of the Son of God.” Smith’s views on the nature of God changed, so a number of passages in the Book of Mormon had to be revised. Interestingly, a number were not, so there still are parts of that book which teach classic trinity. Smith later developed a radically different concept which has God the Father (called Elohim), Jesus and the Holy Ghost as three completely separate individuals, with Elohim and Jesus both as resurrected beings. In Smiths publicly taught doctrine, God had been a man previously and played the role of a Christ for his father god. He then had spirit children with a Heavenly Mother and these spirits come down as you and I. Jesus was the first born spirit and Satan was one of our spirit brothers. Brigham Young, the second prophet of the LDS branch of Mormonism, then continued this evolution of thought and taught the Adam-God doctrine in which Adam was the spiritual father of us, rather than Elohim. Elohim was above Adam in the hierarchy of the gods. This doctrine was taught for about 20 years and then it faded away once Young died. Mormonism is officially back to where Smith publicly taught (there are questions to how much additional doctrine he shared his inner circle as he stated that there were things which he could not teach the public, and how much of that was the reason for Young’s changes). The LDS church seems to want to roll the doctrine back even further in time, which would become problematic for many people as this doctrine has been accepted and taught by all of the subsequent prophets. One other interesting point is that Mormonism believes that it was Elohim who came down in the resurrected flesh and knew Mary in the biblical sense, making Jesus the physical as well as spiritual son of God. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/84 "2013-08-06T02:48:25Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > **ruben4ruben** , I can’t help but notice that you have failed to respond to anyone who has pointed out the verses in Scripture that _support_ a Trinitarian understanding. You’ve just called us heretics or worse. But to be fair, you all are heretics, or worse, right? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/85 "2013-08-06T03:02:02Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > 1 \*\*He never claimed to be God almighty. It’s nowhere in the Bible. \*\* > > He did say he was one with God in John 10:30 and many try to use that to say he is part of a combined being. (trinity). But that does not work since Jesus also says that his disciples can be one with God just as he is in the same book: John 17:21 … [QUOTE=Prophet Isaiah, 9:6 KJV (Emphasis Mine)] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, **The mighty God, The everlasting Father** , The Prince of Peace. [/QUOTE] Is this not a prophecy of the Messiah? If Jesus is the “mighty God” and the “everlasting Father”, how can he not be God? How many Gods are there? [QUOTE=John, 8:56-59 KJV (Emphasis Mine)] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, **Before Abraham was, I am**. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. [/QUOTE] The way I’ve had it explained to me was that Jesus is alluding to the name YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah here, which comes from or is related to the Hebrew word for “to be”. So, in response to a question about how old **he** really is, he responds, “Before Abraham was, YHWH.” Clearly those around him did not approve of this statement as right afterwards, t **hey started stoning him.** That’s not exactly something you do to someone who mildly pisses you off. Clearly he was seen as doing something very offensive, such as claiming to be God. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/86 "2013-08-06T03:13:35Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > … > > PS The first triad or trinity is said to originate with Nimrod who had sex with Semiramis, his own mother, whom gave birth to Tammuz. Thus Nimrod was both father and son. After his death Nimrod and later Tammuz and Semiramis were deified and a cult started wich carried over into many empires and nations and the names of this triad of “gods” simply changed over the years. > > Look it up if you want,… Where is this story documented? I don’t think it’s in the Bible. Is it in one of the Babylonian epics? I’d like to read it. Thanks, ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/87 "2013-08-06T03:20:16Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I’ve heard one analogy in computer-related terms. God exists as the universe/program out of 0’s and 1’s. People don’t understand the 0’s and 1’s, so God inserts himself as an interface avatar (Jesus), so we can understand/approach him. I forget how the Holy Spirit enters into this analogy. If you pay attention, this is more or less the plot of Tron Flynn is a User, he has access to programming internals (miracles), and can survive being derezzed (resurrection). Also, “Tron”, the program who came before Flynn but who wasn’t a User himself, has a name that can be seen as a reference to “John”, who the Bible describes as the forerunner to the Light but who wasn’t the Light himself (John 1). ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/88 "2013-08-06T04:12:43Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > **ruben4ruben** , I can’t help but notice that you have failed to respond to anyone who has pointed out the verses in Scripture that _support_ a Trinitarian understanding. You’ve just called us heretics or worse. > > Worse yet, you have confused and conflated Trinitarianism with polytheism. Which, understandably, is a common and easy mistake. But no one who worships the Trinity is going to recognize our God in your clumsy strawman caricature. Dear Skammer, I did respond to most verses i noticed so your statement is not entirely true. I’m sure did not pick up **all** of them, i’ll believe you on that without checking. The majority of verses i offered were ignored or picked up by an atheist. I felt a bit let down to be honest. If you want me to answer what i might have missed then simply pick _specific ones_ you want me to respond to. Point out wich ones i missed and i’ll answer. If you really want me to, that is. Not to be misunderstood… i gave a _very large amount_ of verses that were mostly totally ignored. **How about that?** Will YOU be so kind to trade with me comment for comment? I’ll answer what you pick and you answer what the other debaters ignored. Do we have a deal? IF you accept my offer to trade…this is my first selection of questions that were ignored: 1: How can Christ hand over the kingdom to God in heaven and subject himself to God in heaven when they are a Trinity? Do you hand over things to yourself often? 2: Why does the bible praise “The God and Father” of our Lord Jesus Christ? You say they are one, that they are a trinity…so how can one be the **GOD** of the other?? 3: Why did Jesus kneel with his face down pray to God, begging in anguish saying **not my will but your will be done** just before his arrest if he is GOD? What’s with this not my will but your will thing and the talking to himself thing? 4: Why does the bible depict Jesus sitting or standing **next** to God at His right hand in **heaven**? You claim they are a Trinity and say i’m confusing it with polytheism. Well then how do you explain this? They are continuously mentioned as 2 separate persons, one above the other in status. (The Holy Spirit does not even get mentioned) Please explain. 5: How can Jesus not know of the time of Armageddon? Why does the bible say **Only the Father knows**. (so that the Holy Spirit also does not know) Please kindly explain this part of only the Father knowing while you claim trinity. Note this was written after Jesus death, resurrection and ascension. You tell us please. Please help me understand and guide me toward the correct path if i am wrong. I’m willing to hear and think over what you have to say. If you can convince me, i’ll thank you and follow you. To make up for any hurt feelings i’ll answer 7 questions for these 5 if i missed as many. Just point them out and quote them so i can check i did miss them. Now if you are Catholic then you don’t have to answer my 5 questions at all. I’ll respect your official dogma of unexplainable mystery. But then we are done and i will use my time to start preparing my following topic. Sorry if i hurt any feelings, i’m quite passionate about the bible and the sacrifice Jesus Christ made for us. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/89 "2013-08-06T05:11:03Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > . . . 1: How can Christ hand over the kingdom to God in heaven and subject himself to God in heaven when they are a Trinity? Do you hand over things to yourself often? . . . I, too, will be guilty of not addressing all of your points. In the interest of brevity (no one wants to read multiple full-screen responses!) I will just hit on the points that I think are most interesting, most promising, or (I’m a dilettante) most fun. In fact, I do hand things over to myself! Often! Sometimes, when I have a problem, I will “sleep on it.” Sometimes, I’ll “go with my instincts.” Sometimes, I’ll delegate a task to my unconscious mind, using a kind of self-hypnosis. (I’ll create a menmonic association, and use that as a kind of “alarm clock” to remind myself of something I meant to do.) Sometimes, I’ll jot down notes to myself, and read them later. We humans can be multiple “persons” in ourselves. Now, I don’t think this is what the Christian Trinity is based around. But, well, you asked a question, and the answer is, “Yes, I do!” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/90 "2013-08-06T06:59:56Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > I’ll just stick to the bible. I value the bible as the highest evidence or judge of itself. Opinions of philosophers, theologists, bible critics, clerics ancient and modern and of course “traditions” don’t really mean anything to me. Please forgive me for not engaging arguments that have to do with those views. I can not rate them. Unless it is your claim that you came up with these arguments all by yourself, then _you **are** interpreting scripture according to a tradition, and/or the work of other scholars._ Are you in fact claiming that you have original insight into this? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/91 "2013-08-06T11:07:15Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Mark 2:5-6: > > Compare Ezekiel 34:1-16 with John 10:11-18: > Compare Exodus 3:13-14 to the following. > > Whether Jesus was God or not, the authors of the Gospels pretty clearly thought he was. In Mark 13 v61-63, you will note he separates himself from the God, The psalmists said (talking to other Jewish men)," I said you are gods and sons of the most high". If one looks back in history the word GOD had different meanings, It was more like a man with power, not as we think of it today. Jesus backs this up in John 10, He tells the priests and Pharisee’s "It says in YOUR LAW, You are gods, so why do you say I blaspheme because I call God my father, when your Fathers did? This seems to indicate he didn’t think of himself any different than any other human. There are many things written by many different people so it is a matter of what one chooses to believe. The Pharaohs in Egypt named them selves God. Many writings are contradictory, and many early writers were not included in the NT, the Roman and orthodox bishops decided what was inspired by God and what was not, that lasted for 700 years, until the Orthodox separated from Rome. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/92 "2013-08-06T11:23:55Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Thank you Trinopus, for your answer to the question of whom Jesus is praying and begging to. > > As I expected most people don’t want to touch this one so yeah, i’m happy enough you bothered. > > I think this argument is proof enough by itself since they are Christ’s own words to \*another person \*and in _deference and obediance_. > It’s so telling that i can only wonder why anyone would totally ignore this. Same as with when Jesus is dying and asks God “why have you abandonded me?”. (!) > > It staggers my mind people can read that without thinking or hearing the proverbial alarm bells. That point being made i’ll make another one today. Probably my final arguments on this topic. > > I’ll just stick to the bible. I value the bible as the highest evidence or judge of itself. Opinions of philosophers, theologists, bible critics, clerics ancient and modern and of course “traditions” don’t really mean anything to me. Please forgive me for not engaging arguments that have to do with those views. I can not rate them. > Today’s point: The Bible tells of Christ\* sitting at God’s right hand in several verses and also shows the Christ being \*\*\*subordinate to God.\*\*\*I also find this ultimate proof as the argument that Christ became part of a unified being is totally destroyed. > > Here goes: > > \*\*Colossians 3:1 \*\*If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. _English Standard Version_ > > **John 17:5** “So now you, Father, glorify me \*\*alongside yourself \*\*with the glory that I had **alongside you** _before the world was_.” (in line with Col 1:15-17) > How can Jesus be alongside God if he is God? Also note that here Jesus himself says he was alongside God before the world was, as in John 1:1 “the Word was with God” > > **1 Peter 1:3** “Blessed be **the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!** By his great mercy he has given us a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” _New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition_ > Can God have a God??!! Anyone feel free to explain. > > **John 20:17** “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto **my Father, and your Father** ; and to **my God, and your God**.” _King James Version_ > So God ascends to his God? To his father; the same person who is Father and God to us humans?! Feel free to explain. > > **Acts 7:55** “But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into **heaven** , and saw the glory of God, and **Jesus standing on the right hand of God,** ” _American Standard Version_ > > Note that all parts of the trinity-concept are mentioned here and are not one! The Spirit is not in heaven, nor a person, nor seen but inside Stephanus like a _force_ and Jesus again is _at the right hand of God_.) > How God can stand at the right hand of God? > > **Mark 13:32** “Now concerning that day or hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven nor the Son—except the Father.” _Holman Standard Christian Bible_ > If Jesus is God or part of a trinity how can he not even know this? (The Holy Spirit isn’t even mentioned as it’s obviously not a person but a force.) > > \*\*Matthew 20:23 \*\* "He said to them, “My cup you will drink, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.” " _Mounce Reverse Interlinear New Testament_ > If Jesus is God or part of God or even equal to God how can he say he can’t make that decision? > > **John 14:28**" You heard me say to you, ‘I am leaving, but I will come back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father; for he is greater than I. " _Good News Translation_ > If Jesus is God, who is **greater** than God??! > > **1 Corinthians 15:24,27 and 28** _New Revised Standard Catholic Version_ > > 24: Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. > Christ\* _hands over_ the kingdom to his father?? If they are part of one being how can he hand over anything at all??? Can you hand over something to yourself? > > 27: “For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him.” > Clear distinction about who’s in charge and who awards position. > > 28:When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all. > Again Christ subjecting himself to God, a totally separate person. Can you submit yourself to yourself?! If Christ is God how can he submit to God? > > \*\*1 John 5:5 \*\*“Who is the one that conquers the world but he who has faith that Jesus is the Son of God?” (quite plain and simple) > > **Revelation 1:1** “A revelation by Jesus Christ, _which God gave him_, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John” > How can God give Jesus Christ a revelation if Jesus is God? This was written around 98 AD decades after Jesus’ ascension. > > I could go on with verses like these for a few more hours. But the bible is clear enough. Try any bundle of translations you like, some people just don’t respect the bible but put the words of man above those of God. > > ``` > -Jesus Christ- *Mark 7:6-9* > > ``` > > Thanks for joining, > > Ruben > > PS The first triad or trinity is said to originate with Nimrod who had sex with Semiramis, his own mother, whom gave birth to Tammuz. Thus Nimrod was both father and son. After his death Nimrod and later Tammuz and Semiramis were deified and a cult started wich carried over into many empires and nations and the names of this triad of “gods” simply changed over the years. > > Look it up if you want, but this is “red pill” stuff. It will lead you to recognise Babylonian symbols and ceremonies in unexpected places… There’s a hidden reason some people were fierce advocates of trinity and were willing to persecute and kill those that didn’t accept it. Like The Who sang: Meet the new boss… > > \*Christ or Khristos, the Greek word for the Hebrew Messiah means annointed or annointed king It Is a proven fact that the entire Bible was written by many different humans; it was also humans who decided what was of God and what was not. Muslims believe God dictated( through an angel) a whole book to Muhammad, and there is just as much a possibility that they are as right as any other Book. It would seem that God changes his mind a lot! ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/93 "2013-08-06T11:27:31Z")
The OP is on a loser here. It matters not how much ‘evidence’ he cites, the Trinity is an article of faith not fact. Most intelligent Christians concede that the doctrine of the Trinity evolved slowly over the first centuries of the Church (the disciples would have appalled by it and would have considered it blasphemous.) Arius and Athanasius were still at loggerheads over the definition of the Trinity in the 3rd century and their respective creeds would divide the faithful for centuries to come. The point is that you can’t prove Jesus isn’t God any more than you can prove that he is. It’s a matter of belief. As Tertullian said of the Resurrection, “I believe it _because_ it is impossible.” ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/94 "2013-08-06T11:35:09Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Dear Skammer, > I did respond to most verses i noticed so your statement is not entirely true. I’m sure did not pick up **all** of them, i’ll believe you on that without checking. The majority of verses i offered were ignored or picked up by an atheist. I felt a bit let down to be honest. > > If you want me to answer what i might have missed then simply pick _specific ones_ you want me to respond to. Point out wich ones i missed and i’ll answer. If you really want me to, that is. > Not to be misunderstood… i gave a _very large amount_ of verses that were mostly totally ignored. **How about that?** Will YOU be so kind to trade with me comment for comment? I’ll answer what you pick and you answer what the other debaters ignored. Do we have a deal? > IF you accept my offer to trade…this is my first selection of questions that were ignored: > 1: How can Christ hand over the kingdom to God in heaven and subject himself to God in heaven when they are a Trinity? Do you hand over things to yourself often? > > 2: Why does the bible praise “The God and Father” of our Lord Jesus Christ? You say they are one, that they are a trinity…so how can one be the **GOD** of the other?? > > 3: Why did Jesus kneel with his face down pray to God, begging in anguish saying **not my will but your will be done** just before his arrest if he is GOD? What’s with this not my will but your will thing and the talking to himself thing? > > 4: Why does the bible depict Jesus sitting or standing **next** to God at His right hand in **heaven**? You claim they are a Trinity and say i’m confusing it with polytheism. Well then how do you explain this? They are continuously mentioned as 2 separate persons, one above the other in status. (The Holy Spirit does not even get mentioned) Please explain. > > 5: How can Jesus not know of the time of Armageddon? Why does the bible say **Only the Father knows**. (so that the Holy Spirit also does not know) Please kindly explain this part of only the Father knowing while you claim trinity. Note this was written after Jesus death, resurrection and ascension. You tell us please. > Please help me understand and guide me toward the correct path if i am wrong. > I’m willing to hear and think over what you have to say. If you can convince me, i’ll thank you and follow you. > To make up for any hurt feelings i’ll answer 7 questions for these 5 if i missed as many. Just point them out and quote them so i can check i did miss them. > Now if you are Catholic then you don’t have to answer my 5 questions at all. I’ll respect your official dogma of unexplainable mystery. But then we are done and i will use my time to start preparing my following topic. > Sorry if i hurt any feelings, i’m quite passionate about the bible and the sacrifice Jesus Christ made for us. As I see it, Jesus suffering was not as great a sacrifice as our service people make. Jesus seemed to know he would only be dead for about 36 hours, Not many can know that. And he was said to have chosen when he would return. There are people who suffer their whole lives and are uncertain of how long it will last. I would think to suffer for 3 hours was hardly a big sacrifice compared to our service people who have a long life of suffering ahead! ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/95 "2013-08-06T13:03:05Z")
**ruben4ruben** , whether Jesus is God and Trinitarian concepts are expressed or not in the bible, it seems like either side can effectively argue their position by relying heavily on particular verses to support one view, while ignoring the other verses which would show the opposite. If they are aware of such scriptures that show the opposite, but can’t reconcile it, so chooses to ignore those, it’s also known as “sins of omission.” Others have shown how John makes a good case for Jesus being God, and in other places as well. One can’t have a non-Trinitarian concept without reconciling many of these verses here and elsewhere, and likewise, those with a Trinitarian view can’t do so either without reconciling the scriptures you have pointed out. Isn’t the best way to view all of this is to realize that the bible was made up of some 40 main authors, which consists of hundreds of redactions and interpolations, so naturally shouldn’t one expect many different views expressed? Or do you think the bible is really special and is God’s word, and it has a unified message if only one is to understand it? And how do you feel about the NWT? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/96 "2013-08-06T13:03:27Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > But to be fair, you all are heretics, or worse, right? We are in the majority, so _we_ get to call _him_ the heretic. 😉 > [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Dear Skammer, > \ > > If you want me to answer what i might have missed then simply pick _specific ones_ you want me to respond to. Point out wich ones i missed and i’ll answer. If you really want me to, that is. How about all the instances where Jesus refers to himself as I AM? Or calls himself the Good Shepherd? Or assumes the power to forgive sins? > [@](#): > > Not to be misunderstood… i gave a _very large amount_ of verses that were mostly totally ignored. **How about that?** Will YOU be so kind to trade with me comment for comment? I’ll answer what you pick and you answer what the other debaters ignored. Do we have a deal? > > \ > > 1: How can Christ hand over the kingdom to God in heaven and subject himself to God in heaven when they are a Trinity? Do you hand over things to yourself often? > > 2: Why does the bible praise “The God and Father” of our Lord Jesus Christ? You say they are one, that they are a trinity…so how can one be the **GOD** of the other?? > > 3: Why did Jesus kneel with his face down pray to God, begging in anguish saying **not my will but your will be done** just before his arrest if he is GOD? What’s with this not my will but your will thing and the talking to himself thing? > > 4: Why does the bible depict Jesus sitting or standing **next** to God at His right hand in **heaven**? You claim they are a Trinity and say i’m confusing it with polytheism. Well then how do you explain this? They are continuously mentioned as 2 separate persons, one above the other in status. (The Holy Spirit does not even get mentioned) Please explain. > > 5: How can Jesus not know of the time of Armageddon? Why does the bible say **Only the Father knows**. (so that the Holy Spirit also does not know) Please kindly explain this part of only the Father knowing while you claim trinity. Note this was written after Jesus death, resurrection and ascension. You tell us please. This is what I meant when I said you don’t understand the doctrine of Trinity. God in _three persons_. The three persons interact with each other in communion as well as unity. See the account of Jesus’ baptism, when the Father’s voice is heard from heaven and the Spirit descends like a dove. You can list verse after verse where Jesus, God or the HS are mentioned separately and interacting with each other and it does not contradict the concept of Trinity because _that’s what the Trinity is_ - one God in three persons. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/97 "2013-08-06T14:10:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > As I see it, Jesus suffering was not as great a sacrifice as our service people make. Jesus seemed to know he would only be dead for about 36 hours Mr. Deity, explaining the whole thing to [del]Jesse[/del]Jesus: “Thirty-six hours tops. Thirty-five if we do it on the weekend when the time changes!” ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/98 "2013-08-06T16:50:09Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > We are in the majority, so _we_ get to call _him_ the heretic. 😉 > > How about all the instances where Jesus refers to himself as I AM? Or calls himself the Good Shepherd? Or assumes the power to forgive sins? > This is what I meant when I said you don’t understand the doctrine of Trinity. God in _three persons_. The three persons interact with each other in communion as well as unity. See the account of Jesus’ baptism, when the Father’s voice is heard from heaven and the Spirit descends like a dove. You can list verse after verse where Jesus, God or the HS are mentioned separately and interacting with each other and it does not contradict the concept of Trinity because _that’s what the Trinity is_ - one God in three persons. This explains nothing. This clarifies nothing. What, multiple personality disorder? Exclaiming a contradictory bit of mysterious Canon just shows how ridiculous religious doctrines can be. The only meaning of “one but separate” I see is: one entity type … three different entities. Insisting on the Trinity Doctrine just forwards the concept of “Religion is enigmatic, God works in mysterious ways”. There is no message, no “Good News” if humanity can’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/99 "2013-08-06T17:42:29Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > See the account of Jesus’ baptism, when the Father’s voice is heard from heaven and the Spirit descends like a dove. You can list verse after verse where Jesus, God or the HS are mentioned separately and interacting with each other and it does not contradict the concept of Trinity because _that’s what the Trinity is_ - one God in three persons. I readily admit that I can’t follow this at all. Imagine that I’m standing right in front of you while my father’s voice is heard from off in the distance. Imagine too that, on yet other occasions, my father and I are seen interacting with each other. Imagine as well that I’m quick to spell out that he knows things I don’t know. And now imagine someone points out that he and I are of course two men, at which point I patiently explain, _uh, no, we’re one man in two persons._ What would that even mean? As far as I can tell, the stuff I copy-and-pasted from you fits perfectly with mere polytheism; how is this not that? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/100 "2013-08-06T18:05:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > . . . Imagine that I’m standing right in front of you while my father’s voice is heard from off in the distance. Imagine too that, on yet other occasions, my father and I are seen interacting with each other. . . . During the period of Christ’s physical incarnation, the separation is obvious. The standard answer is that, for thirty-three years, Jesus voluntarily set aside his god-ness, and took on a temporary aspect of man-ness. So, yeah, from 1 AD to 33 AD (plus or minus) Jesus was “Not God.” That is supposed to have changed after the ascension to heaven. As noted above: it’s a story. It’s faith. The Bible says both yea and nay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115.md?page=6)