# Why Jesus is not God and can't be God. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115 "2013-08-01T23:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/141 "2013-08-10T11:16:21Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > In truth, no. Maybe in some fringe traditions; but even most of the conservative/fundamentalist churches that subscribe to biblical inerrancy only claim the text to be inerrant in the original language, and allow for errors in translation. (Not all of them of course). As you move to more moderate and liberal churches, they all agree that the original text is, well, the original, and is authoritative over any translation. Although they differ on inerrancy, authority, etc. > > I feel like you’re trying to set up a trap; but yes God is Holy - all three persons are Holy. > > It sounds like you are setting up a pantheon rather than a unified God. A triumvirate is made of three different individuals; that is not orthodox Christianity. IF the father is holy then why need a separate Holy spirit, God the father is supposed to be a Holy separate person, why would that be different or a third person? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/142 "2013-08-10T11:27:55Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Sorry everybody, > > i’m not out really. But i’m eager to start a new biblical topic. I guess i’m a bit too eager and maybe a bit too forward/curt/uptight in my last posts. Forgive me, that’s not nice. > > I’m still game if anyone has _specific_ questions on biblical verses they feel support trinity. I don’t like people skipping things so i should not do it. > (I did answer on Elohim, Logos/Word and several others) > > However, a forum debate is so fluid, i think i underestimated the fast flow of it all. But as i proposed earlier; I’ll trade comments. I got a bit upset because nobody answered most of the “heaviest” verses against trinity. I still have had almost no response on those. I’m not gonna repeat the 5 questions i offered, the post is still there. > > If anyone wants to answer them, even just 1 at a time, i promise to trade and answer the verses i’m supposed to have missed. Fair enough? > > Now in the mean time i’m gonna research on my previous statement about the Archangel Michael being identified as Christ. I said it, so i’ll dig it up. Will do my best to get it done Thursday. > I saw someone asked about angels and why God let the Eden incident happen. > I gather from the bible that angels do have free will just like Adam had free will and yes, the Devil also had free will. Ezekiel 28 says that angel was faultless and beautiful before making the wrong choice. > > Why would God make “robots” that can’t love and obey him out of free will? Why can’t angels be family if God made them? Why compare them with mere cooks, butlers or maintenance guys? **The bible itself calls them Sons of God**. Is the bible saying it not good enough? \*\*Job 1:6 \*\* > > Answer about Things taking a wrong turn in Eden. > If God can see the future why should he always use that ability to peek? Since he is Almighty he can give us choice and free will to make that right choice and make him happy. Read **Proverbs 27:11** > > If you would read the opening chapter of Job, you can see what’s been going on. Satan accused Job, and all of us, for being self serving and questioned Job’s integrity. Job was pressured, attacked and insulted from all possible sides and even starts doubting, but he holds on. Don’t you think that made God very happy? > > Also note that God asks Job what he thinks he knows compared to God. We should not expect our understanding and knowledge of events to match God’s. > > The God of the bible is described as having feelings. We have emotions too as we are made in his image. If you have children yourself think about how you feel about your kids and then meditate on how God feels about us. > Answer to “Do i think i have original insight?” > No. > If i say something, it is not because i believe i have some kind of “special” or original insight. I’m just a regular Joe, average bear type of guy. I do believe that anyone that studies the bible regularly and believes it to be God’s word and the ultimate judge on itself will gain better insight than most people. (bible explains bible) > > My insight comes from hearing what others have found, and then like the Bereans and other 1st century people from **examining** those words and digging in the scriptures. In Acts it said that they reasoned (or debated) from the Scriptures. **Acts 17:2** > Do i follow human tradition? > I always listen to anyone…and then i’ll check the bible for myself to make up my own mind if it is right. I don’t follow human tradition, but i do look at the “cloud of witnesses” that **Hebrews 12:1** mentions. I learn from Abel, Noah,Abraham Ruth, Esther, Moses, Peter, John… That’s why i don’t need to rely on human tradition and popular contemporary views. Noah was \*not \*popular and did not go with the flow. (no pun intended) > We shouldn’t just believe anything we are told: **Proverbs 14:15** We are all responsible for our own faith and relation with God. > I’m just asking you to _examine_ the bible. Your brain, your heart and ultimately God will do the rest. > Sorry if i came across a bit arrogant or impatient. I’ll do my best not to get too excited. I’ll focus more on enjoying the discussion. (takes his pills) When one reads about the trials of Job, it makes me wonder why God felt it necessary to test Job to prove something to Satan. God knew ahead of time that Job would still be as God wanted him to be. Why would God kill a man’s family to prove a point to an enemy of his, when he knew what the result would be sounds unfair. Such a God cannot be called Just. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/143 "2013-08-10T13:16:00Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > God knew ahead of time that Job would still be as God wanted him to be. Why would God kill a man’s family to prove a point to an enemy of his, when he knew what the result would be sounds unfair. Is the OT God supposed to know that sort of thing ahead of time, or is it just the NT God? ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/144 "2013-08-11T07:34:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > _ **Okieshowedem** has asserted that he is not the author of that site, so I am not accusing him of being dishonest, only of being led astray by other dishonest people._ Having reviewed **Okie’s** [posting history](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=10008543) (all 37 posts, at this writing), I’d say it’s clear he isn’t the author of the link, who instead appears to be [Yisrayl Hawkins](http://www.yahweh.com/about_us.html) of Abilene, Texas. That Hawkins is dishonest, or at least full of … stuff, I readily agree. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/145 "2013-08-11T12:26:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is the OT God supposed to know that sort of thing ahead of time, or is it just the NT God? The Christians know, say God is all knowing, If that is true then he knew all things ahead of timer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/146 "2013-08-11T14:42:51Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The Christians know, say God is all knowing, If that is true then he knew all things ahead of timer. I’m not disputing whether the Christians say God is all-knowing; I’m asking whether the Jews say God is all-knowing. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/147 "2013-08-11T16:26:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not disputing whether the Christians say God is all-knowing; I’m asking whether the Jews say God is all-knowing. I’m sure the Jews are as diversified as the Christians on some insisting God is all- knowing, while others would indicate he isn’t, and each group could easily pick and choose which scriptures they find to their liking that would best support this position while once again ignoring the rest that didn’t. It took a few minutes of searches to find blogs that used OT scripture to support an all-knowing God. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/148 "2013-08-11T18:17:39Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > IF the father is holy then why need a separate Holy spirit, God the father is supposed to be a Holy separate person, why would that be different or a third person? Consider the Nicene Creed- We believe in **God, the Father** , the Almighty, **maker of heaven and earth,** and all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one **Lord, Jesus Christ,** the only **Son of God** , eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfilment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end. We believe in **the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,** who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. The Father created everything. The Son is the Savior, and the Holy Spirit breaths life (soul) into us, and probably also impregnates virgins and kills first born Egyptians. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/149 "2013-08-12T11:50:30Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Consider the Nicene Creed- > > We believe in **God, the Father** , the Almighty, > **maker of heaven and earth,** > and all that is seen and unseen. > > We believe in one **Lord, Jesus Christ,** > the only **Son of God** , eternally begotten of the Father, > God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, > begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. > Through him all things were made. > For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: > by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. > For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. > On the third day he rose again in fulfilment of the Scriptures; > he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. > He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, > and His kingdom will have no end. > > We believe in **the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,** > who proceeds from the Father and the Son. > With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. > He has spoken through the Prophets. > > We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. > We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. > We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. > > The Father created everything. The Son is the Savior, and the Holy Spirit breaths life (soul) into us, and probably also impregnates virgins and kills first born Egyptians. Why isn’t the father a Holy Spirit? Why is there a need for Judgement, if God knows all things? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/150 "2013-08-12T12:12:49Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Why isn’t the father a Holy Spirit? Why is there a need for Judgement, if God knows all things? I’ll answer the first one … all three are holy and all three are spiritual. Since one is a Father and one is a Son, the last entity got stuck with the name “Holy Ghost” by default. His real name could be Irving, who knows. “Holy Ghost” was conferred by humans, who must label everything. I don’t know that any judgement will ever take place. If you’re asking why an ancient religion and the spin-off cults it produced claim a vengeful jealous God will judge humanity and punish the transgressors, I would say that the authors of the Bible were projecting their own judgmental tendencies into their oral traditions and Scriptures … or maybe most of us are screwed. One way to find out. ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/151 "2013-08-13T01:54:45Z")
Like i said, just because God can use his ability to look ahead doesn’t mean he always _would_ use it. God created Job with free will just as Adam had free will. The bible is full of warning and guidance yes entire books of advice. (like Proverbs!) Why all this advice and pleas from God to make him happy by making the right choice? Is God that stupid to warn us and give advice while knowing ahead you’re gonna knock over that bank or get pregnant by the quarterback anyway? What do \*\*you \*\*think? Please note it was not God that killed Job’s kin, but Satan was willing to go to any length to crush Job’s loyalty. Maybe you should read it over again slowly and see that even at the worst moment Job expressed his faith in resurrection. Job 14:15 Maybe it’s not in God’s personality to always want to peek into the future, but…have some faith all will turn out alright. (Everybody hates spoilers) People, have some faith will ya? Some verses on Christ being an angel way before being a man: **Galatians 4:14** though my condition put you to the test, you did not scorn or despise me, but welcomed me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. _New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition_ **Colossians 1:15** He is the \*\*image \*\*of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. \*New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition \* Who is the \*\*image \*\*of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: \*King James Version \* Please note that i made the word image bold as you all have read that before in Genesis where us humans are described as being _creations_ in God’s _image_. Think on it. **John 7:28,29 28** herefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU​ both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that **sent** me is real, and ​YOU​ do not know him.29 I know him, because I am a **representative** from him, and that One **sent** me forth.” Now for Jesus claiming they knew him and where he was from is not about him being born in Bethlehem and his post code… The whole Old Testament is full of Messianic prophesies. You probably know the first one: **Genesis 3:15**. Read and note that it foretells the snake (Satan) crushing Jesus in the heel and Jesus crushing the snake in the head. A heel or foot injury can cause to fall but is not ultimate or fatal. You can rise from that injury and Jesus was indeed resurrected. The bible mentions the Archangel (or chief of angels) Michael fighting the Dragon or Great Snake identified as Satan. Michael = Jesus but i’ll continue that later in this post. Many Christians think they don’t need the Old Testament, but we do. It’s quite impossible to understand the identity of the Christ/Messiah without all the prophesy and background of Israel. Jesus didn’t just show up on a whim, the entire combined nation (both Judea and Samaria) were \*\*expecting \*\*the Messiah to be born around the year he was born. Why so? Because they knew their scriptures! For example if i tell you Jesus fulfilled/ended the Mosaic Law, do you understand? If i say Jesus and Melchizedek in one sentence, does a bell ring? **Hebrews 5:1-10** Do you understand Jesus died on a special religious day, just before the high priest would make the sacrifice to commemorate liberation from Egypt? Do you know what it means that the High Priest himself convicted Jesus and what that means? Can you combine the term Lamb of God combined with the above? Do you understand Jesus being a superior High Priest that could make a sacrifice that would \*\* not have to be repeated every year?\*\* (namely his own life) A sacrifice that was a much greater fulfillment of the liberation from Egypt in Moses’ days. Just a selection from **Hebrews 7:** “23 Furthermore, the former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently he is able for all time to save[e] those who _ **approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.** _ 26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other[f] high priests, he has no need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for those of the people; this he did once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests those who are subject to weakness, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.” Jesus is evidently not God Almighty, i’ll keep saying it. Your own bible tells you exactly who he is and what he does for us. He mediates for us, just like Moses, Aaron, and Israel’s High Priests did. Except Christ being the Son of God, the very first of all angels being a superior priest. Do you understand why he had to die? Why the word ransom is sometimes used? Some other posters said i’m on a loser here as it is a matter of faith. I agree, i am on a loser here. I gave my two cents. **The Michael-Jesus Connection** : Jude 1:9 and then 1 Thessalonians 4:16 Revelation 12:7 and then Revelation 19:14-16 2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22 These verses speak of Michael leading angels and Jesus leading angels. There is only _ **one** _ Archangel in the bible though and the bible does not speak of two armies of angels. Hence Michael=Jesus Christ in his heavenly form. Matthew 13:41 **John 17: 5** So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. _New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition_ In the entire bible only two names of holy angels are mentioned. Michael and Gabriel. All other angels are not named and when they were asked they said their names were not important. Now if you read Daniel, Michael is called the prince of Daniel’s people. And the angel speaking to Daniel says he was held up by the (demon) prince of Persia for twenty one days and Michael came to help him. Daniel: 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1 Exodus also speaks of God sending his people an angel to lead them through the wilderness and into the promised land. Compare that to Jude 9 where Michael and the Devil argue about Moses’ body. Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2 Revelation 12 mentions Michael and The Christ in the same setting, 12:7 and 12:10. Then in Revelation 19:11-16 Jesus Christ can be identified leading God’s armies as the rider on the white horse, called The Word of God. Compare John 1:1 _The Word of God, or God’s spokesman._ Michael translates “Who is like God?” a fitting name for God’s champion. Sorry for the delay…been busy, Ruben. Oh and by the way… The God of the Old Testament is the same of the New Testament. The word jealous is misunderstood. (Like Oprah totally did.) When Adam and Eve rebelled, did God kill them on the spot??? NO. So here we, their offspring are still alive to call Him a vengeful mean bastard. When Cain murdered his innocent younger brother did God kill him on the spot??? NO, Cain unremorseful of his disgusting crime even pleaded upon God’s mercy. Because he knew God! When the earth was filled with violence and mankind defiled by the Nephilim and their demon fathers did God instantly wipe out mankind? NO, he gave warning for at least **50 years** through Noah and his family whom did not only build but also warned of judgement. In fact every time one reads the OT it is clear that JHWH gives warning and a way out for those with the right state of heart. That is if you actually read the Old Testament. (all of it) The Mosaic Law even has laws preventing animal cruelty! God says in Exodus he is a jealous God. But don’t confuse that with jealous like your family or lover. It means **demanding exclusive worship.** Is that unfair for the Creator of all living things, even the universe, to ask??? Is God wrong and petty to ask his people, those that agreed with loud voices on the mountains when they made the Covenant with JHWH? Is he wrong to ask his people not to worship Baal, Marduk, Dagon, Semiramis? Or Shiva, Vishnu, Buddha the pope or the United Nations? Read the OT and see that God did not make such claims upon _other peoples_ that had no **covenant** with him. Why does it even need explaining that the Almighty God would ask to be treated as the Almighty God? We don’t have to choose His side. But if you do, know that he asks exclusive devotion. If you can’t give that loyalty and don’t like exclusive relations, simply don’t get involved. You can always serve kings, presidents, clerics, CEOs, companies, countries or societies and see how forgiving they are when you’re even only perceived as disloyal. I hear a certain Bradley is being shown a lot of consideration for his troubled conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/152 "2013-08-13T02:19:57Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > . . . These verses speak of Michael leading angels and Jesus leading angels. There is only _ **one** _ Archangel in the bible though and the bible does not speak of two armies of angels. Hence Michael=Jesus Christ in his heavenly form. . . . This doesn’t follow logically. The Bible never speaks of llamas or penguins, but they still happen to exist. (Jesus and Michael may have alternated in command, as in the case of Gnaeus Servilius Geminus and Marcus Atilius Regulus. Of course, this led to the disaster at Cannae, so it isn’t recommended for anyone not omniscient.) ---
**Author:** ![ruben4ruben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/153 "2013-08-13T02:47:06Z")
I gave quite more evidence than just what you quoted. And it _does_ follow, but maybe it helps if you actually read the verses. (and take into account all the other arguments) Let’s clarify a bit: The bible only speaks of THE Archangel. Only in singular form and never in plural form or casual form. It’s a very clear and decisive title. So don’t worry about lamas and penguins, there is only one Archangel. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/154 "2013-08-13T03:18:24Z")
Ruben, can you help me out? I see Jesus associated with terms like “Son of God”, “the Word”, “Author”, “Prince”, and “Chosen One”. I’m not seeing his name connected with “Michael” or “Archangel”. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/155 "2013-08-13T04:31:10Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > I gave quite more evidence than just what you quoted. . . .The bible only speaks of THE Archangel. Only in singular form and never in plural form or casual form. . . . You said that the Bible doesn’t mention additional armies. But that isn’t proof that there weren’t any. You made a leap which is not supportable by logic. I also pointed out that two individuals can command the same army. It actually has happened in human history. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/156 "2013-08-13T11:14:16Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > I’ll answer the first one … all three are holy and all three are spiritual. Since one is a Father and one is a Son, the last entity got stuck with the name “Holy Ghost” by default. His real name could be Irving, who knows. “Holy Ghost” was conferred by humans, who must label everything. > > I don’t know that any judgement will ever take place. If you’re asking why an ancient religion and the spin-off cults it produced claim a vengeful jealous God will judge humanity and punish the transgressors, I would say that the authors of the Bible were projecting their own judgmental tendencies into their oral traditions and Scriptures … or maybe most of us are screwed. One way to find out. I agree, and I also wonder if the translators of the writings didn’t add a lot of what they wanted it to say or believe. There is so many contradictions. If God is all Knowing then he knew before a person was born what he would do. Just as in the case of Job, if God is all knowing as is taught, then he is not a fair, loving, or an all knowing being. Of course I don’t believe anyone got instructions from God, and no one is an authority, or really knows anything about God. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/157 "2013-08-13T11:18:02Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > Like i said, just because God can use his ability to look ahead doesn’t mean he always _would_ use it. God created Job with free will just as Adam had free will. The bible is full of warning and guidance yes entire books of advice. (like Proverbs!) > > Why all this advice and pleas from God to make him happy by making the right choice? Is God that stupid to warn us and give advice while knowing ahead you’re gonna knock over that bank or get pregnant by the quarterback anyway? > > What do \*\*you \*\*think? > > Please note it was not God that killed Job’s kin, but Satan was willing to go to any length to crush Job’s loyalty. Maybe you should read it over again slowly and see that even at the worst moment Job expressed his faith in resurrection. > Job 14:15 > > Maybe it’s not in God’s personality to always want to peek into the future, but…have some faith all will turn out alright. (Everybody hates spoilers) > People, have some faith will ya? > Some verses on Christ being an angel way before being a man: > > **Galatians 4:14** though my condition put you to the test, you did not scorn or despise me, but welcomed me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. > _New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition_ > > **Colossians 1:15** > He is the \*\*image \*\*of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. > \*New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition \* > > Who is the \*\*image \*\*of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: > \*King James Version \* > > Please note that i made the word image bold as you all have read that before in Genesis where us humans are described as being _creations_ in God’s _image_. Think on it. > > **John 7:28,29 28** herefore Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple and said: “YOU​ both know me and know where I am from. Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that **sent** me is real, and ​YOU​ do not know him.29 I know him, because I am a **representative** from him, and that One **sent** me forth.” > Now for Jesus claiming they knew him and where he was from is not about him being born in Bethlehem and his post code… The whole Old Testament is full of Messianic prophesies. > > You probably know the first one: **Genesis 3:15**. Read and note that it foretells the snake (Satan) crushing Jesus in the heel and Jesus crushing the snake in the head. A heel or foot injury can cause to fall but is not ultimate or fatal. You can rise from that injury and Jesus was indeed resurrected. The bible mentions the Archangel (or chief of angels) Michael fighting the Dragon or Great Snake identified as Satan. Michael = Jesus but i’ll continue that later in this post. > > Many Christians think they don’t need the Old Testament, but we do. It’s quite impossible to understand the identity of the Christ/Messiah without all the prophesy and background of Israel. Jesus didn’t just show up on a whim, the entire combined nation (both Judea and Samaria) were \*\*expecting \*\*the Messiah to be born around the year he was born. Why so? Because they knew their scriptures! > > For example if i tell you Jesus fulfilled/ended the Mosaic Law, do you understand? > If i say Jesus and Melchizedek in one sentence, does a bell ring? **Hebrews 5:1-10** > > Do you understand Jesus died on a special religious day, just before the high priest would make the sacrifice to commemorate liberation from Egypt? Do you know what it means that the High Priest himself convicted Jesus and what that means? Can you combine the term Lamb of God combined with the above? > > Do you understand Jesus being a superior High Priest that could make a sacrifice that would \*\* not have to be repeated every year?\*\* (namely his own life) > A sacrifice that was a much greater fulfillment of the liberation from Egypt in Moses’ days. > > Just a selection from **Hebrews 7:** > > “23 Furthermore, the former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office; > 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. > 25 Consequently he is able for all time to save[e] those who _ **approach God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.** _ > 26 For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. > 27 Unlike the other[f] high priests, he has no need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for those of the people; this he did once for all when he offered himself. > 28 For the law appoints as high priests those who are subject to weakness, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.” > > Jesus is evidently not God Almighty, i’ll keep saying it. Your own bible tells you exactly who he is and what he does for us. He mediates for us, just like Moses, Aaron, and Israel’s High Priests did. Except Christ being the Son of God, the very first of all angels being a superior priest. > > Do you understand why he had to die? Why the word ransom is sometimes used? > > Some other posters said i’m on a loser here as it is a matter of faith. I agree, i am on a loser here. I gave my two cents. > **The Michael-Jesus Connection** : > > Jude 1:9 and then 1 Thessalonians 4:16 > Revelation 12:7 and then Revelation 19:14-16 > > 2 Thessalonians 1:7; Matthew 16:27; 24:31; 1 Peter 3:22 These verses speak of Michael leading angels and Jesus leading angels. There is only _ **one** _ Archangel in the bible though and the bible does not speak of two armies of angels. Hence Michael=Jesus Christ in his heavenly form. > Matthew 13:41 > > **John 17: 5** So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. > _New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition_ > In the entire bible only two names of holy angels are mentioned. Michael and Gabriel. All other angels are not named and when they were asked they said their names were not important. > > Now if you read Daniel, Michael is called the prince of Daniel’s people. And the angel speaking to Daniel says he was held up by the (demon) prince of Persia for twenty one days and Michael came to help him. Daniel: 10:13, 20, 21; 12:1 > > Exodus also speaks of God sending his people an angel to lead them through the wilderness and into the promised land. Compare that to Jude 9 where Michael and the Devil argue about Moses’ body. Ex 23:20, 21, 23; 32:34; 33:2 > > Revelation 12 mentions Michael and The Christ in the same setting, 12:7 and 12:10. Then in Revelation 19:11-16 Jesus Christ can be identified leading God’s armies as the rider on the white horse, called The Word of God. > Compare John 1:1 _The Word of God, or God’s spokesman._ > > Michael translates “Who is like God?” a fitting name for God’s champion. > > Sorry for the delay…been busy, > > Ruben. > Oh and by the way… The God of the Old Testament is the same of the New Testament. The word jealous is misunderstood. (Like Oprah totally did.) > > When Adam and Eve rebelled, did God kill them on the spot??? > NO. So here we, their offspring are still alive to call Him a vengeful mean bastard. > > When Cain murdered his innocent younger brother did God kill him on the spot??? > NO, Cain unremorseful of his disgusting crime even pleaded upon God’s mercy. Because he knew God! > > When the earth was filled with violence and mankind defiled by the Nephilim and their demon fathers did God instantly wipe out mankind? > NO, he gave warning for at least **50 years** through Noah and his family whom did not only build but also warned of judgement. > > In fact every time one reads the OT it is clear that JHWH gives warning and a way out for those with the right state of heart. That is if you actually read the Old Testament. (all of it) The Mosaic Law even has laws preventing animal cruelty! > > God says in Exodus he is a jealous God. But don’t confuse that with jealous like your family or lover. It means **demanding exclusive worship.** Is that unfair for the Creator of all living things, even the universe, to ask??? > > Is God wrong and petty to ask his people, those that agreed with loud voices on the mountains when they made the Covenant with JHWH? Is he wrong to ask his people not to worship Baal, Marduk, Dagon, Semiramis? Or Shiva, Vishnu, Buddha the pope or the United Nations? > > Read the OT and see that God did not make such claims upon _other peoples_ that had no **covenant** with him. Why does it even need explaining that the Almighty God would ask to be treated as the Almighty God? > We don’t have to choose His side. But if you do, know that he asks exclusive devotion. If you can’t give that loyalty and don’t like exclusive relations, simply don’t get involved. > > You can always serve kings, presidents, clerics, CEOs, companies, countries or societies and see how forgiving they are when you’re even only perceived as disloyal. I hear a certain Bradley is being shown a lot of consideration for his troubled conscience. As far as we know, the only thing that is said about what God said or did, was from the mind or pen of another human being. Then Belief is in the words of another human not God! ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/158 "2013-08-13T15:42:07Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I agree, and I also wonder if the translators of the writings didn’t add a lot of what they wanted it to say or believe. There is so many contradictions. If God is all Knowing then he knew before a person was born what he would do. Just as in the case of Job, if God is all knowing as is taught, then he is not a fair, loving, or an all knowing being. > > Of course I don’t believe anyone got instructions from God, and no one is an authority, or really knows anything about God. The underlined section seems contradictory. Maybe that’s not what you meant to say. If God’s all knowing, then he’s not all knowing? Maybe you could rephrase that last sentence. I’m certain that most of the Bible is either lifted from other cults or made up for the purposes of establishing and maintaining control. In my mind, there were probably three Commandments … don’t Kill, don’t steal, don’t bear false witness. I imagine the tribe elders and leaders added the “Honor thy parents” … these kids today with their clothes and their music … and the merchant who’s wife ran away with the snake charmer suggested the “not covet thy neighbor’s wife” part. Obviously the acolytes didn’t want competition from the Mardukites or Ashurites, so we get the “no false God’s” section, and so on. It’s interesting how so many people are troubled by the notion of God possibly knowing the future, but allowing us to live it anyway. Why wouldn’t he? As long as he’s not controlling our every decision, we have free will. Why do we care if he knows? He’s not telling us, at least about our own little lives … and the prophesies like Revelation, are sufficiently vague to not really spoil the movie. Why is it cruel to let a person have free will, yet know what he’ll do? He’s doing it to himself. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/159 "2013-08-13T22:04:28Z")
_Ruben,_ thanks again for all of the bold type, and telling us to read more slowly, couldn’t have made it without that. Is this post #151 what Paul meant by saying “it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe”? How is that working for ya, any converts as of late to speak of? Ever? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115/160 "2013-08-14T12:37:11Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > The underlined section seems contradictory. Maybe that’s not what you meant to say. If God’s all knowing, then he’s not all knowing? Maybe you could rephrase that last sentence. > > I’m certain that most of the Bible is either lifted from other cults or made up for the purposes of establishing and maintaining control. In my mind, there were probably three Commandments … don’t Kill, don’t steal, don’t bear false witness. I imagine the tribe elders and leaders added the “Honor thy parents” … these kids today with their clothes and their music … and the merchant who’s wife ran away with the snake charmer suggested the “not covet thy neighbor’s wife” part. Obviously the acolytes didn’t want competition from the Mardukites or Ashurites, so we get the “no false God’s” section, and so on. > > It’s interesting how so many people are troubled by the notion of God possibly knowing the future, but allowing us to live it anyway. Why wouldn’t he? As long as he’s not controlling our every decision, we have free will. Why do we care if he knows? He’s not telling us, at least about our own little lives … and the prophesies like Revelation, are sufficiently vague to not really spoil the movie. Why is it cruel to let a person have free will, yet know what he’ll do? He’s doing it to himself. As a human parent, I would never give my child anything that would harm it, nor hold back anything that I knew was for it’s own good. Free will is not,You can go to the movies, but is it is not what I want for you , but if you do go I will kill you. If a person has free will he would not be punished for doing his own thing. To me If a parent would let a child play with a sharp knife and knew he would harm himself or other’s I would not allow him to have it. I take it, that if you saw your child starting to kill himself( or another) you would not stop it? After all he has free will. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-is-not-god-and-cant-be-god/665115.md?page=9)