# Why Jesus wasn't a carpenter, and why the truth is more interesting **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 9, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197 "2015-04-09T11:17:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/21 "2015-04-10T14:12:20Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > But was he actually dead for three days? He died on a Friday, yes? And with enough time before sundown that he could at least be carried to the tomb and the tomb could be closed. And he was resurrected before early morning Sunday, when the tomb was found empty. That may be 3 different periods of daylight, but that’s hardly 3 days later. > > There is, no doubt, some theological explanation for this. I’m no Biblical scholar, and this only occurred to me a couple of days ago, so I’m sure someone else has already thought of it and explained it, but it does make me wonder. THe Jews of the time counted days from sundown the night before, and considered part of a day as “a day”. Jesus was crucified on Friday (about nine o’clock according to one account, around noon according to John), died that afternoon and was buried, and rose again at some unspecified point during Saturday night. Thus Friday was one day, Friday night and Saturday was another day, and the third day started on Saturday night. > [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The _Greek_ word is tekton, but the Aramaic word was “naggar,” which usually gets translated as “craftsman”; it was a stand-by word for “the wisest man in the room,” which is why I compared it to the modern term “rocket scientist.” As the Wiki article points out - > [@](#): > > The suggested term naggar “craftsman” is not found in biblical Aramaic or Hebrew, or in Aramaic documents of the New Testament period… As **MrDibble** points out, if they wanted to say “craftsman” they probably would not have said “tekton”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/22 "2015-04-24T16:45:47Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Right, but the point of the OP (I think) is that both those seem to add up to a poor translation from Aramaic - both gospels half-translated an idiom as literal. > > If that’s true, if it were an idiom in the original Aramaic (but as far as I know there’s no scholarly belief that ‘Q’ or any other lost source was Aramaic), then neither one was a carpenter. My point was that the mangled attempt to literally translate an idiom because the author did not realize it was an idiom suggests the story’s original language is Aramaic. That makes the story both very old, and rooted in Jewish Jesus-ism, rather than Hellenistic Christianity. It was probably in circulation as an oral story from very early in the movement. It suggests a lot of things: one is that the idea that Jesus had other siblings is pretty old, and another is that his origin in some non-famous town is part of the oldest stories (hence the convoluted fables that get him to Bethlehem and Egypt). Also, the story originates with Mark, who wasn’t Jewish, and would not have been familiar with the idiom. Matthew copies the error. Matthew was probably Jewish, but he was a Hellenized Jew who may not have known the idiom, and at any rate, Mark is his primary source, and he’s not going to work the idiom back into Mark at the expense of relieving Joseph of his profession. Further, because there’s evidence here that Mark mangled this idiom makes you wonder in general what kinds of sources he was dealing with, and whether he made other errors. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/23 "2015-04-24T17:32:12Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > No, he wasn’t dead for three days, _but everyone says he was_. It’s often said that he rose on the 3rd day. Day 1 = Friday Day 2 = Saturday Day 3 = Sunday, which would be the 3rd day. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/24 "2015-04-24T17:42:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Way I hear it, the actual word used for Jesus’ profession in the bible, _tekton_, is best translated “journeyman” or “artisan” or “craftsman”, not “engineer” or “architect”. I heard he was an architect previous to his career as a prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Richey84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Richey84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richey84)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/25 "2015-04-24T18:51:06Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Also, the story originates with Mark, who wasn’t Jewish Sorry for the potentially dumb question, but how do we know Mark wasn’t Jewish? I remember in school learning that Luke was a Gentile. But I don’t remember anything about the other three Evangelists to suggest that any of them were not Jews. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/26 "2015-04-24T19:13:01Z")
> [@Richey84](#): > > Sorry for the potentially dumb question, but how do we know Mark wasn’t Jewish? I remember in school learning that Luke was a Gentile. But I don’t remember anything about the other three Evangelists to suggest that any of them were not Jews. Well, it’s complicated. First of all, The Gospel of Mark likely wasnt written by Mark. Even so- which Mark? _Mark the Evangelist_ was one of the “Seventy Disciples” who were sent out by Jesus to saturate Judea with the gospel, later a companion and interpreter of the apostle Peter. _John Mark_ was an assistant of Paul as shown in Acts: _When [Peter] realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.[Acts 12:12] And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem when they had fulfilled their mission, bringing with them John whose other name was Mark.[Acts 12:25] When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them.[Acts 13:5] Now Paul and his company set sail from Paphos, and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem; but they passed on from Perga and came to Antioch of Pisidia.[Acts 13:13–14] And Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark. But Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. And there arose a sharp contention, so that they separated from each other; Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, but Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren to the grace of the Lord.[Acts 15:37–40]_ (wiki) They also may be the same person. :eek: The Gospel was written in Greek, and clearly for a Gentile audience. That doesnt mean the real author(s) wasn’t born a Jew but it weighs against it. ---
**Author:** ![Richey84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Richey84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richey84)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/27 "2015-04-24T19:21:09Z")
Wow. See, I went to Catholic school and I learned all this… > [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, it’s complicated. First of all, The Gospel of Mark likely wasnt written by Mark. Even so- which Mark? > > _Mark the Evangelist_ was one of the “Seventy Disciples” who were sent out by Jesus to saturate Judea with the gospel, later a companion and interpreter of the apostle Peter. > > _John Mark_ was an assistant of Paul as shown in Acts: > _When [Peter] realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose other name was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.[Acts 12:12] > And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem when they had fulfilled their mission, bringing with them John whose other name was Mark.[Acts 12:25] > When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them.[Acts 13:5] > Now Paul and his company set sail from Paphos, and came to Perga in Pamphylia. And John left them and returned to Jerusalem; but they passed on from Perga and came to Antioch of Pisidia.[Acts 13:13–14] > And Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark. But Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work. And there arose a sharp contention, so that they separated from each other; Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, but Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren to the grace of the Lord.[Acts 15:37–40]_ (wiki) > > They also may be the same person. :eek: But not this… > [@DrDeth](#): > > The Gospel was written in Greek, and clearly for a Gentile audience. That doesnt mean the real author(s) wasn’t born a Jew but it weighs against it. Interesting! Thanks for the info! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/28 "2015-04-24T20:10:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s often said that he rose on the 3rd day. > > Day 1 = Friday > Day 2 = Saturday > Day 3 = Sunday, which would be the 3rd day. Jesus said, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” [Matthew 12:40](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12:40&version=NIV) That’s pretty unambiguous: three days and three nights. Friday night, Saturday night; when was the third night? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/29 "2015-04-25T00:27:28Z")
Some people believe that the Crucifixion was on Thursday, precisely because of that issue. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/30 "2015-04-25T02:40:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Jesus said, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” [Matthew 12:40](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12:40&version=NIV) > > That’s pretty unambiguous: three days and three nights. Friday night, Saturday night; when was the third night? In other words, three days, or _really_ dead, and so when he resurrects, he’s not one of those people who just seemed to be dead, and was unconscious for 12 hours, then woke up, he’ll be genuinely dead, and the resurrection will be a genuine miracle. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/31 "2015-04-26T00:27:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > John whose other name was Mark John/Mark? Saul/Paul? Abrahm/Abraham? Pretty lame. Didn’t anybody back then have a _bitchin’_ nickname? “Folks 'round here call me ‘Turbo.’” ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/32 "2015-04-26T02:33:46Z")
“’…Turbo’ the Jew.” ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/33 "2015-04-26T07:41:43Z")
James and John were nicknamed “Sons of Thunder”. That’s pretty badass. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/34 "2015-04-26T08:06:48Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Mark is the original source for the story: > Matthew gives it as this: > > Matthew is probably trying to restore as much of an Aramaic saying as he can, which Mark, or whoever wrote down some anecdotes in Greek that Mark used as a source, did not understand, and garbled. > > The phrase, which appears in the Talmud, and in some earlier sources, suggesting it was in fact in use in first century Judah, was “Only a carpenter, the son of a carpenter can explain this puzzle.” It is something rabbis say when they come across a point of law they cannot elucidate. “Carpenter” is a loose translation-- if such a job existed in modern times, it would probably be “engineer,” or “rocket scientist,” but as it is, it means someone who can design a structure from the ground up-- who can make something from nothing. > > When is interesting about this is that if it contains a vestige of an Aramaic phrase which was garbled, this suggests a real antiquity to the story. > > It doesn’t prove anything… Correct. Your argument makes no sense. If “carpenter” or “carpenter’s son” is an idiom for a “very smart guy,” then what you have the people saying is, “How can he know all this stuff? Isn’t he supposed to be a really smart guy?” Why would they say that? On the other hand, it makes perfect sense in modern English — “How would a manual laborer know all this stuff?” I do agree that Mark 6 contains a nugget of historical truth, though. [QUOTE=Mark 6:5] So he was not able to perform any mighty deed there, apart from curing a few sick people by laying his hands on them. [/QUOTE] He couldn’t work miracles when the people were skeptical, except for faith healing, which any phony can do. Which does that sound more like, the Lord of the Universe, or the Long Island Medium? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/35 "2015-04-26T08:07:56Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > John/Mark? Saul/Paul? Abrahm/Abraham? Pretty lame. Didn’t anybody back then have a _bitchin’_ nickname? Can you smell what Peter is cooking? Oh, it’s a bagel. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/36 "2015-04-26T10:32:24Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Why would they say that? On the other hand, it makes perfect sense in modern English — "How would a manual laborer know all this stuff? And of course modern English is obviously the best way to interpret a thousand plus year old story that’s gone through multiple translations. Lol ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/37 "2015-04-26T11:50:55Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > No, he wasn’t dead for three days, _but everyone says he was_. That was my point. Why make such a fuss over his having been dead for three days, when he wasn’t? It’s because “three days dead” means “absolutely and beyond all doubt, not coming back without a miracle, dead.” That’s how dead Jesus needed to be for resurrection theology. Three Days Dead? Didn’t they open for Three Dog Night? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/38 "2015-04-26T23:13:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And of course modern English is obviously the best way to interpret a thousand plus year old story that’s gone through multiple translations. Lol No, it’s not the best way. The best way is to spend your life studying ancient languages and ancient history, and then translate it yourself. But most people have neither the time or talent for that, so the second best way is to get translations and commentaries in your native tongue, written by experts who have spent their lives studying ancient languages and ancient history. Or, you can do what I guess you propose, and reject all that, and just go with something you read on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/39 "2015-04-26T23:32:49Z")
I just want to add, I’m always amazed at how many amateur exegetes are confident enough to reject the efforts of the committees of scholars who produce the mainstream Bible translations, and fearlessly put forth their own analysis of Greek or Hebrew idioms from thousands of years ago. I think I have at least average talent in languages, and I took three years of French, with all A’s. Any attempt of mine to translate, say, a Victor Hugo novel would be absolutely wretched, even though it was written in the Roman alphabet, in a Western country, less than 200 years ago. Yet people who have at most one semester of Greek, or more usually no formal training whatever, are ready and willing to explain how the experts are all wrong when it comes to ancient Greek or Hebrew idioms. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197/40 "2015-04-27T00:40:47Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I just want to add, I’m always amazed at how many amateur exegetes are confident enough to reject the efforts of the committees of scholars who produce the mainstream Bible translations, and fearlessly put forth their own analysis of Greek or Hebrew idioms from thousands of years ago. > > I think I have at least average talent in languages, and I took three years of French, with all A’s. Any attempt of mine to translate, say, a Victor Hugo novel would be absolutely wretched, even though it was written in the Roman alphabet, in a Western country, less than 200 years ago. Yet people who have at most one semester of Greek, or more usually no formal training whatever, are ready and willing to explain how the experts are all wrong when it comes to ancient Greek or Hebrew idioms. Yep, we had a popular poster here whose knowledge of Ancient Greek was limited to a Atheist blog he ran, but he sure sounded like he knew what he was talking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-jesus-wasnt-a-carpenter-and-why-the-truth-is-more-interesting/717197.md?page=3)