# Why "John Doe"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 6, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074 "2002-10-06T15:24:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Louann\_Miller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dec6dc/32.png) [@Louann\_Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Louann_Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/1 "2002-10-06T15:24:56Z")
Pretty much what the header says. How did “John Doe” and “Jane Doe” get to be the place-holder names for people whose names are not known? ---
**Author:** ![23skidoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f04885/32.png) [@23skidoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/23skidoo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/2 "2002-10-06T15:32:53Z")
I had always assumed is was some goof on “John, DOA”. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/3 "2002-10-06T15:32:59Z")
And the Great Cecil answers [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_168a.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_168a.html) ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/4 "2002-10-06T15:47:52Z")
I always thought it was because “Abijah T Bindersnatch” took just too long to type. ---
**Author:** ![Louann\_Miller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dec6dc/32.png) [@Louann\_Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Louann_Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/5 "2002-10-07T15:04:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by samclem \* > \*\*And the Great Cecil answers [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_168a.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_168a.html) \*\* Sorry about that. I tried to search the board archives, didnt think to search the column archives. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/6 "2002-10-07T16:46:42Z")
Cecil’s article doesn’t explain where “John Doe” really comes from, though, and I suspect the standard answer is “nobody knows.” However, I do have a theory. Consider that two other common “stand-in” names used in English jurisprudence are “John a Nokes” and “John a Stiles.” Both are ancient, and are derived from, respectively, “John at the oaks” and “John of the stiles.” These namings may have once belonged to real people in real cases, but they have been genericized. Much legal language has been taken from French, no doubt due to the the influence of the Normans. Might a third stand-in name have been used in French, that name being “John by the water,” i.e., “Jean D’eau”? This would have been absorbed in the usual British fashion as “John Doe.” ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/7 "2002-10-08T00:18:53Z")
And why is it John Doe and not **John Smith?** I always considered that to be the most common, generic, plain-vanilla english name. I’ve never, ever, in my life met anyone named Doe! ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/8 "2002-10-08T02:15:30Z")
I know a John Doe. He’s a kinda strange guy. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/9 "2002-10-08T04:50:41Z")
Trust [The Maven](http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19991105) ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/10 "2002-10-08T05:55:42Z")
The Maven copped out, **samclem**. I stand by my theory, although I can’t find any supporting evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/11 "2002-10-08T07:59:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > \*\*And why is it John Doe and not **John Smith?** I always considered that to be the most common, generic, plain-vanilla english name. I’ve never, ever, in my life met anyone named Doe! \*\* I think probably John Smith is _too_ common to be used for this purpose. People might think that you were actually referring to a known person called John Smith. John Doe is a sufficiently distinctive name for one to know, when one hears it, that the speaker is using the name as a shorthand way of saying “an unknown male”. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2002, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/12 "2002-10-08T17:08:28Z")
In legal cases in which there are two unidentified parties, the second is often referred to as Richard Roe, viz., “State v. John Doe and Richard Roe.” There is a law professor at my alma mater whose actual name is Richard Roe. I always found that humorous. –Cliffy, Esq. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/13 "2002-10-09T02:38:11Z")
**Nametag** You said > [@](#): > > Consider that two other common “stand-in” names used in English jurisprudence are “John a Nokes” and “John a Stiles.” I need a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/14 "2002-10-09T03:04:22Z")
Try Garner’s “A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage” – sorry, it’s not online. I might mention that these two are archaic usages. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/15 "2002-10-09T05:01:29Z")
**Nametag** Thanks for that. The OED indeed list John a Nokes and John a Stiles from 1531. John Doe they list from 1768 in Blackstone’s Commentaries. Thanks for taking the discussion back a few centuries. I think that the French connection that you proposed is not likely unless you can show me that John Doe was used in the 12th century or so. Then it could have come from French. But as late as it appears, it’s not likely from John d’eau. It would be nice to know where Cecil got his info that the term John Doe appears in the 14th century. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/16 "2002-10-09T05:02:08Z")
[The Word Detective’s](http://www.word-detective.com/112701.html) explanation: > [@](#): > > …the use of “John Doe” and “Jane Doe” as stand-ins for the names of unidentified persons is so widespread in everyday life that most of us never think to wonder why that should be. > > Fortunately, I happen to have on my shelf a fine book called “What’s In A Name?” by the learned and prolific Paul Dickson (Merriam-Webster, 1996) which deals with just this sort of question. It turns out that the “John Doe” custom dates back to the reign of England’s King Edward III, during the legal debate over something called the Acts of Ejectment. This debate involved a hypothetical landowner, referred to as “John Doe,” who leased land to another man, the equally fictitious “Richard Roe,” who then took the land as his own and “ejected,” or evicted, poor “John Doe.” > > These names – John Doe and Richard Roe – had no particular significance, aside from “Doe” (a female deer) and “Roe” (a small species of deer found in Europe) being commonly known nouns at the time. But the debate became a hallmark of legal theory, and the name “John Doe” in particular gained wide currency in both the legal world and general usage as a generic stand-in for any unnamed person. According to Mr. Dickson, “John Doe” and “Richard Roe” are, to this day, mandated in legal procedure as the first and second names given to unknown defendants in a case (followed, if necessary, by “John Stiles” and “Richard Miles”). The name “Jane Doe,” a logical female equivalent, is used in many state jurisdictions, but if the case is federal, the unnamed defendant is dubbed “Mary Major.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/17 "2002-10-09T17:37:57Z")
So, what do they do if one of the parties to a case really has one of those names? Is there a standard way of distinguishing? ---
**Author:** ![lumps937](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/da6949/32.png) [@lumps937](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lumps937)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/18 "2002-10-09T21:54:39Z")
Doe and Roe are typically used in Complaints and other initial pleadings to indicate parties unknown. One of the descriptive paragraphs of the pleading will then state that John Doe is an unknown individual. If by chance there is a real person named John Doe being sued, then the descriptive paragraph will describe him (i.e., “a natural person residing at 123 Oak Street, Blackacre.”) ---
**Author:** ![OxyMoron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9a140/32.png) [@OxyMoron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OxyMoron)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/19 "2002-10-10T01:28:15Z")
Perhaps the most famous example in United States is Roe v. Wade; Wade was a district attorney in Texas, and “Jane Roe” an anonymous woman later revealed to be Norma McCorvey. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2002, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074/20 "2002-10-10T04:46:59Z")
\*Originally posted by KarlGauss > [@](#): > > These names – John Doe and Richard Roe – had no particular significance, aside from “Doe” (a female deer) and “Roe” (a small species of deer found in Europe) being commonly known nouns at the time. So, if two anonymous litigants contested ownership of a tractor, would they call it “John Doe _v_ Richard Roe _in re_ John Deere”? Or would that get thrown out as being frivolous? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-john-doe/131074.md?page=2)