# Why "ladies" instead of "gentlewomen"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 10, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483 "2007-05-10T01:06:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/1 "2007-05-10T01:06:24Z")
Why did “ladies” replace “gentlewomen” when “lords” didn’t replace “gentlemen”? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/2 "2007-05-10T01:31:26Z")
Chivalry was not yet dead then? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/3 "2007-05-10T12:30:49Z")
The US House of Representatives still uses “Gentlewoman.” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/4 "2007-05-10T12:47:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Why did “ladies” replace “gentlewomen” when “lords” didn’t replace “gentlemen”? Total WAG, it started ladies and lords way back when there was a 2 class system, lords and peasants (or common men). As that system slowly broke down it was inappropiate to call the common men ‘lords’, so a new term was needed. Using ‘gentlemen’ was sort of a underhand hint for those common men to act ‘gentle’ and not be crude (like you normally are). There was no need to redefine ladies as the term was equally OK for both classes. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/5 "2007-05-10T16:45:17Z")
I’ve read some stories set in older times (ie, 18th and 19th Century America) and it often seems like a “gentleman” was more than just an average dude. I get the impression that a gentleman was a man of leisure, who didn’t engage in physical labor to earn his living. Someone like a lawyer, or a wealthy landowner, or that sort of thing, would be called a “gentleman.” A farmer or a factory worker would not. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/6 "2007-05-10T17:13:01Z")
[QUOTE=Diceman] I’ve read some stories set in older times (ie, 18th and 19th Century America) and it often seems like a “gentleman” was more than just an average dude. I get the impression that a gentleman was a man of leisure, who didn’t engage in physical labor to earn his living. Someone like a lawyer, or a wealthy landowner, or that sort of thing, would be called a “gentleman.” A farmer or a factory worker would not. [/QUOTE] I’ve noticed the same thing in those sorts of stories, and one important divide seems to be education; if the person had as much as a high school (or in England, a “public” school) education he might be considered a gentleman, or if he came from a family of established lineage–regardless of whether they actually had much money or not. Civil service and bank clerks, often drawn from this class in those days, would be addressed as gentlemen and treated with some deference by blue collar people and by those who, though employed by the firm, worked as messengers or in some similar capacity. Two examples of this are Anthony Trollope’s _The Three Clerks_ and Wodehouse’s _Smith In The City_. ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/7 "2007-05-10T21:45:49Z")
I’d heard (no cite, no idea when I heard it…many years ago) that gentleman derives from the original gentileman… that is, Christian. A term they used for themselves to refer to their christian allegiance or some such thing. Again, no idea if it’s accurate, but posting here to see if others know. ---
**Author:** ![wendigo1974](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@wendigo1974](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wendigo1974)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/8 "2007-05-10T22:25:13Z")
[QUOTE=filmyak] I’d heard (no cite, no idea when I heard it…many years ago) that gentleman derives from the original gentileman… that is, Christian. A term they used for themselves to refer to their christian allegiance or some such thing. Again, no idea if it’s accurate, but posting here to see if others know. [/QUOTE] [quote] gentile 1160, from L.L. gentilis “foreign, heathen, pagan,” from L. gentilis “person belonging to the same family, fellow countryman,” from gentilis (adj.) “of the same family or clan,” from gens (gen. gentis) “race, clan” (see gentle). Used in Vulgate to translate Gk. ethnikos, from ta ethne “the nations,” which translated Heb. ha goyim “the (non-Jewish) nations.” Used during 14c. to mean both “ **one who is not a Christian** ” and “ **one who is not a Jew.** ” [From Here](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=g&p=3) From the same site > [@](#): > > gentle > c.1225, from [O.Fr](http://O.Fr). gentil “high-born, noble,” from L. gentilis “of the same family or clan,” from gens (gen. gentis) “race, clan,” from root of gignere “beget” (see kin), from PIE base \*gen- “produce.” Sense of “gracious, kind” (now obsolete) first recorded c.1280; that of “mild, tender” is 1552. Older sense remains in gentleman “well-born man” (c.1275). Gentleman’s agreement is first attested 1929. It seems it was based on men with means from the get go. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/9 "2007-05-10T22:28:58Z")
> **[lady | Search Online Etymology Dictionary](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=lady)** > > The online etymology dictionary (etymonline) is the internet's go-to source for quick and reliable accounts of the origin and history of English words, phrases, and idioms. It is professional enough to satisfy academic standards, but accessible... The OP’s premise is flawed. The comparison should not be with ‘lord replacing gentleman’, because the title ‘lady’ was expanded to be appropriate to the lower classes as well as true ladies. ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/10 "2007-05-11T05:50:36Z")
Thanks, Wendigo! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/11 "2007-05-11T16:47:53Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] _Smith In The City_. [/QUOTE] Would that be “Psmith”? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ladies-instead-of-gentlewomen/403483/12 "2007-05-11T17:03:44Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] Would that be “Psmith”? [/QUOTE] Sorry, I did leave off the preliminary ‘P’, because I failed to compare ‘pthisis’ and ‘ptarmigan’.