# Why lawyers matter. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500 "2017-01-29T14:45:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/1 "2017-01-29T14:45:43Z")
You’ve seen the pictures: lawyers sitting on the floors of public areas of airports, tapping on their laptops, producing habeas applications as quickly as possible to have the courts review the arbitrary detention of travellers caught up in the mess that the leader of the American regime has produced. [The Lawyers Showed Up](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/01/lawyers_take_on_donald_trump_s_muslim_ban.html) [QUOTE=Slate] For weeks, we have been wondering about the lawyers. What suits would they file? Would they have standing? Could they have any impact? Today, the lawyers showed up. Bigly. And happily, for America, the courts are still independent, and largely allergic to “alternative facts.” This is a country where the law matters and the Constitution endures. And it’s also a country in which hordes of lawyers just showed up at airports to defend detained travelers ensnared under Donald Trump’s lawless and unconstitutional Muslim ban. In San Francisco, the massive crowd at the airport chanted “let the lawyers in.” At JFK in New York, lawyers hunched on the floor over their laptops, filing emergency habeas motions. In Philadelphia and Chicago and at Washington Dulles, the crowds asked for nothing more than this: Let the lawyers speak to their clients. [/QUOTE] That is why lawyers matter. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/2 "2017-01-29T15:45:06Z")
Lawyers often do the right thing. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/3 "2017-01-29T15:46:19Z")
Until the guys with the Uzis show up. _John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it_ ---
**Author:** ![Emily\_Litella](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emily_litella/32/3370_2.png) [@Emily\_Litella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emily_Litella)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/4 "2017-01-29T16:04:21Z")
I’m proud of them for showing up so quickly and getting it done. Checks and balances. > [@](#): > > …just because they happened to be traveling on the day _Steve Bannon_ was writing executive orders. Nice turn of phrase ---
**Author:** ![Savannah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Savannah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Savannah)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/5 "2017-01-29T16:08:44Z")
Kudos to the lawyers. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/6 "2017-01-29T17:01:07Z")
Every day now I look for something to be encouraged about… and this is one of those things. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/7 "2017-01-29T17:47:44Z")
a former manager of mine (who I respect tremendously) would sometimes say “everyone hates lawyers… Until they need one.” I was talking about this to a guy I know who’s an attorney (consumer protection area) and I’m guessing the reason lawyers get a bad rap is because most people’s only exposure to them are advertisements for “ambulance chasing” personal injury lawyers. There is one in my area who put up billboards where his phone number is literally “1-800-CAR-HIT-U.” Another one took a bit of flak when it was discovered she was spending over $300,000 a month on advertising. I don’t think we really have a “sue happy” culture, just the appearance of one. IMO the other thing people don’t like about lawyers is when a defense attorney wins a case for someone who is “obviously guilty” in the court of public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/8 "2017-01-29T20:41:54Z")
As my father told me, “Son, do you know why lawyers cost so much? They’re worth it.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/9 "2017-01-30T00:02:24Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > You’ve seen the pictures: lawyers sitting on the floors of public areas of airports, tapping on their laptops, producing habeas applications as quickly as possible to have the courts review the arbitrary detention of travellers caught up in the mess that the leader of the American regime has produced. > > [The Lawyers Showed Up](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/01/lawyers_take_on_donald_trump_s_muslim_ban.html) > > That is why lawyers matter. I sent that link and it’s text to a Muslim friend who is prepping for the LSAT, with the notation: “If you ever find yourself wondering why you are a lawyer, go back and read this.” ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/10 "2017-01-30T02:31:31Z")
Well there was a huge missed opportunity for lawyers to serve in silence. Trump forgot to CYA before signing - Consult Your Attorney. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/11 "2017-01-30T03:54:50Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > You’ve seen the pictures: lawyers sitting on the floors of public areas of airports, tapping on their laptops, producing habeas applications as quickly as possible to have the courts review the arbitrary detention of travellers caught up in the mess that the leader of the American regime has produced. > > [The Lawyers Showed Up](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/01/lawyers_take_on_donald_trump_s_muslim_ban.html) > > That is why lawyers matter. > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Lawyers often do the right thing. I happen not to agree with the substance of what they are doing. However, we have an adversarial system which under girds our country. Think Adams defending the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre. Even though I think we should be holding off refugees, this is still lawyering at its best. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/12 "2017-02-01T05:20:30Z")
Just wanted to add that it wasn’t just lawyers acting pro-bono: also para-legals, like our own Doper, **Eva Luna**! [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19959457&postcount=21](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19959457&postcount=21) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/13 "2017-02-01T05:46:41Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Even though I think we should be holding off refugees, this is still lawyering at its best. Reasonable people can disagree about whether we ought to be suspending immigration, acceptance of refugees, etc., for how long and depending on what conditions. What I think is much less debatable is the fact that it’s stupid and cruel to issue, without any warning, an entry ban _effective instantaneously_ even for people who have already been issued visas (or are even permanent residents with official green cards!) and are legally and officially on their way to the US, in some cases actually in transit. Saying _“Hey folks, from now on no new visas for 120 days while we revamp our screening procedures”_ is one thing. (I would still disagree with it, but as I said, it’s something people can disagree about.) **But saying _“Surprise! Your conscientiously obtained valid legal and official visa/green card is now worthless paper unless and until we decide it’s valid again! What, you thought obtaining our official seal of approval meant you could trust us? Ha-ha, sucker!”_ is an asshole move and a dirty trick.** It’s seriously disrupted many people’s lives just to let the Administration swagger around looking like a strongman. Millions of people from Canada to New Zealand who might have wanted to visit the US and contribute to our economy are going to stay away, because they’re disgusted at this bullying of non-Americans and also feel they can’t trust us not to suddenly impose more unannounced bans and restrictions and various other take-backsies. Trying to increase the security of our borders is one thing, but deciding on a whim to immediately halt and tinker with the fucking escalator while there are a bunch of people actually riding on it is a stupid way to start the process. Thank Og for the lawyers who are working to at least try to stave off or repair some of the damage we’ve done. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/14 "2017-02-01T08:32:16Z")
I’m currently renting a flat. One of the clauses bans me from “in any way modifying the contracts for the supply of utilities”. That contract is a model downloaded from the webpage of the regional Chamber of Housing (all rentals for this region have to be registered with them). Local power companies offer a maintenance contract which for a relatively low amount includes a yearly checkup, the legally required five-year checkup, and worker time for any problems (you still have to pay for parts). Repair services 24/7/365. The gas contract the agents got doesn’t include this; I asked if it was ok for me to hire it and was told no, because the clause. The repairs needed by the ancient heater since I entered the flat in November have come up to almost 1000€, paid by me but transferred to the owners. If I’d been able to get the maintenance contract, cost would have been 15€ to me (5€/month) plus some 350€ to the owner. Yesterday I had the owner on the phone explaining to me about these nice maintenance services, yes? Would I mind getting it? If a lawyer had been involved, the clause would be a different version I’ve had several times, which says that the renter needs permission from the owner to in any way change or modify the utility contracts. On those occasions in which I’ve had this other version of the clause and the contract didn’t include maintenance, I’ve asked to be allowed to add it and been told “oh yes please do!” Lawyers do things like take a model contract which includes several options within the same clause, check which option do the parts actually want, and remove the rest. People who skip the lawyer often just print everything out, leading to contracts that say “clause IV. The renter cannot perform or contract any repairs. The renter will ask for permission before performing or contracting any repairs. The renter is responsible for all repairs.” A while back I decided I wanted to write my will. The first step was going to a lawyer and asking “hey, what’s exactly the law in this jurisdiction?”, because I knew who I wanted to be my heirs but also that I wanted my will to be valid, and that means it can’t include anything that would be legally unacceptable. Turns out what I wanted is actually the local default, yay, but since having a recorded will makes the paperwork quicker, I did record one. Lawyers can be a pain in the ass (sorry guys), but there are many times when skipping one is an extremely stupid thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/15 "2017-02-01T09:15:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Reasonable people can disagree about whether we ought to be suspending immigration, acceptance of refugees, etc., for how long and depending on what conditions. > > What I think is much less debatable is the fact that it’s stupid and cruel to issue, without any warning, an entry ban _effective instantaneously_ even for people who have already been issued visas (or are even permanent residents with official green cards!) and are legally and officially on their way to the US, in some cases actually in transit. > > Saying _“Hey folks, from now on no new visas for 120 days while we revamp our screening procedures”_ is one thing. (I would still disagree with it, but as I said, it’s something people can disagree about.) > > **But saying _“Surprise! Your conscientiously obtained valid legal and official visa/green card is now worthless paper unless and until we decide it’s valid again! What, you thought obtaining our official seal of approval meant you could trust us? Ha-ha, sucker!”_ is an asshole move and a dirty trick.** It’s seriously disrupted many people’s lives just to let the Administration swagger around looking like a strongman. Yeah, you under the impression that a visa permits entry? No it does not. Every time you apply for a visa they tell you many times that all it does is permits you to apply for entry at a Port of Entry. And it can be cancelled for whatever reason at anytime. Its the United State’s privilege to decide who and how to admit any foreign person > [@](#): > > Millions of people from Canada to New Zealand who might have wanted to visit the US and contribute to our economy are going to stay away, because they’re disgusted at this bullying of non-Americans and also feel they can’t trust us not to suddenly impose more unannounced bans and restrictions and various other take-backsies. Did Millions of Canadians and Kiwis suddenly decide to stop coming when the US invaded Iraq? Setup torture centers on three continents? Started Guantanamo Bay detentions? Made kill lists? I doubt they will now. None of\* them\* are being inconvenienced and its not like they have a special affinity for the countries whose citizen are affected? And lets get real, as a White, Christian cultured nation, they are extremely unlikely to ever face any scrutiny, no matter what administration is in-charge in D.C ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/16 "2017-02-01T16:15:13Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Did Millions of Canadians and Kiwis suddenly decide to stop coming when the US invaded Iraq? Setup torture centers on three continents? Started Guantanamo Bay detentions? Made kill lists? I doubt they will now. Well, I know that as of this week, two different Canadian couples that I know have cancelled plans to visit the US. Anecdotally, I have heard the same sentiment from other people. The US currently has the perception of being unstable, especially after Trump’s visa shenanigans. This is not what upper-middle class tourists are looking for in a vacation spot. I doubt it will kill tourism completely, but there will be a chilling effect. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/17 "2017-02-01T16:47:21Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I don’t think we really have a “sue happy” culture, just the appearance of one. Don’t kid yourself there. Few cultures are quite as individually litigious as the American one. It’s neither good nor bad, though. It’s just how y’alls do it. In other places they do it with a lot of pre-emptive notary work beforehand, or gifts and owed favours, or drunkenly aimed tire irons. It all works well enough 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/18 "2017-02-01T16:53:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Reasonable people can disagree about whether we ought to be suspending immigration, acceptance of refugees, etc., for how long and depending on what conditions. > > What I think is much less debatable is the fact that it’s stupid and cruel to issue, without any warning, an entry ban _effective instantaneously_ even for people who have already been issued visas (or are even permanent residents with official green cards!) and are legally and officially on their way to the US, in some cases actually in transit. > > Saying _“Hey folks, from now on no new visas for 120 days while we revamp our screening procedures”_ is one thing. (I would still disagree with it, but as I said, it’s something people can disagree about.) > > **But saying _“Surprise! Your conscientiously obtained valid legal and official visa/green card is now worthless paper unless and until we decide it’s valid again! What, you thought obtaining our official seal of approval meant you could trust us? Ha-ha, sucker!”_ is an asshole move and a dirty trick.** It’s seriously disrupted many people’s lives just to let the Administration swagger around looking like a strongman. > > Millions of people from Canada to New Zealand who might have wanted to visit the US and contribute to our economy are going to stay away, because they’re disgusted at this bullying of non-Americans and also feel they can’t trust us not to suddenly impose more unannounced bans and restrictions and various other take-backsies. > > Trying to increase the security of our borders is one thing, but deciding on a whim to immediately halt and tinker with the fucking escalator while there are a bunch of people actually riding on it is a stupid way to start the process. Thank Og for the lawyers who are working to at least try to stave off or repair some of the damage we’ve done. One question then; why the rush by an outgoing administration to issue such visas in the last 20 days if its term? Perhaps to embarrass Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/19 "2017-02-01T17:43:09Z")
_‘‘The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers.’’_ ~Shakespeare’s Henry VI That line is frequently misinterpreted to be a condemnation of lawyers but it is quite the opposite and is meant to convey their importance in society (i.e. they stand in the way of the bad guys trying to do their bad guy things). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500/20 "2017-02-05T14:25:11Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > One question then; why the rush by an outgoing administration to issue such visas in the last 20 days if its term? Perhaps to embarrass Trump? Could you elaborate please? what rush to issue visas are you referring to? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-lawyers-matter/778500.md?page=2)