# Why maintain the Imperial System?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 1, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081 "2005-08-01T03:55:22Z")
**Posts on this page:** 15
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/21 "2005-08-01T21:00:28Z")
Yeah, the wingnuts, who are those folks manning those rather loud loudspeaker trucks emblazoned with anti-foreigner slogans really get twisted when they see the emperor not being treated as deity.
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### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/22 "2005-08-01T21:49:41Z")
> [@Monty](#):
>
> Yeah, the wingnuts, who are those folks manning those rather loud loudspeaker trucks emblazoned with anti-foreigner slogans really get twisted when they see the emperor not being treated as deity.
Actually, you know it’s interesting, but I’ve never seen anything explicitly anti-foreigner coming from those guys. A lot of sonnouaikoku and all that, but no “foreigner go home.”
But I’ve never trusted that impression. I figure it has to be there somewhere, maybe in the pamphlets I never read.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [August 1, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/23 "2005-08-01T22:22:30Z")
I’m going by the wingnuts I met in Yokosuka, Ayase, Harajuku, and Okinawa. There are plenty of wingnuts of a variety of stripes there so my groups of wingnuts might be different than the groups of wingnuts you encountered.
Regarding someone calling the emperor the sovereign: I’m not sure who it was who said it (since it was back in the early 1990s), but it was either a newspaper or a governmental representative. In any case, it did cause a storm.
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### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/24 "2005-08-02T00:53:34Z")
I think it was the current prime idiot, Koizumi, who referred to Japan as a “holy nation under the emperor” or some such nonsense. Or maybe that was the moronic governor of Tokyo. I get them all mixed up.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/25 "2005-08-02T01:22:42Z")
> [@Monty](#):
>
> Actually, it looks like the man’s death will be the death of the institution. That’s because of another bit of cultural tradition the Japanese government’s been maintaining: treating women as 2nd class.
Incorrect. First, the current emperor has a son, the crown prince, so there isn’t a problem for this next generation. The prince has only one child, a girl, and with all of the difficulties in conceiving this child (reported this was in vitro), combined with the Crown Princess Masako’s breakdown , it is thought very unlikely that they will have a second child. There is a younger brother to the crown prince, but he has only daughters. If fact, at 37, IIRC, he is the last male born in the imperial family.
Actually, even though Japan doesn’t treat women well (and well deserving of its own thread) the law restricting succession was implemented at the instigation of GHQ. General McArthur wanted to strickly reduce the potential of outside influence, especially the possibility of men marrying into the imperial family. Women weren’t treated as equals by America at the time, either.
Some liberals, including many school teachers are opposed to the system, the school districts are haivng a running battle with teachers who refuse to stand during the Japanese national anthem, Kimigayo
> [@](#):
>
> May the reign of the Emperor continue for a thousand, nay, eight thousand generations and for the eternity that it takes for small pebbles to grow into a great rock and become covered with moss.
True, the Japanese press fawns over the imperial family, and there’s a few true fans of the family, mostly “obasan” matrons who would otherwise be chasing Yon sama instead, but the family isn’t a big part in the life of most Japanese people. They usually don’t discuss it, but Japanese people I’ve talked to general like the imperial system, and usually quote tradition and the cultural heritage as reasons. However, outside of the – unfortunately very loud – minority of ultra rightwingers, there’s no popular support for a restoration of any sort of imperial authority.
Being an American, I personally don’t see the need for royalty, but if the Japanese want it, why not?
For **Monty** , the ultra rightwing folks in Tokyo are not anti foreigner, per se. However; they don’t like the Chinese (territory issues), Koreans (territory issues) or Russians (again, territory issues. Seems to be a pattern here.)
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/26 "2005-08-02T03:16:58Z")
I may be wrong about this, but revising the sucession law to an older form may solve the problem. I believe there are cadet lines of the Imperial lineage, and it wouldn’t be the first time one of them inherited.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/27 "2005-08-02T03:53:10Z")
> [@Blake](#):
>
> What you object to is very specifically that someone inherits a position wherein the government pays him money to maintain a cultural white elephant.
By the way, it seems to me that Japan has the concept (which IMO should be emulated) of “living treasure” (or somesuch) refering to people who perpetuate some ancient skill or craft that would dissapear if they weren’t supported in some way or another by the state.
I would assume that someone holding the endangered job of Emperor could be considered, sort of, as such a “living treasure”.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/28 "2005-08-02T04:08:20Z")
> [@Aeschines](#):
>
> I think it was the current prime idiot, Koizumi, who referred to Japan as a “holy nation under the emperor” or some such nonsense. .
I remember some people refering to a similar nonsense in some other country I forgot the name of. “One nation under god” or somesuch. And apparently, as ludicrous as it obviously is, some of the citizens were _actually_ concerned about this silly sentence.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/29 "2005-08-02T04:15:29Z")
Oh! And I too thought this was yet another thread about the metric system (that the Japanese have wisely adopted, by the way).
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/30 "2005-08-02T04:22:19Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#):
>
> I may be wrong about this, but revising the sucession law to an older form may solve the problem. I believe there are cadet lines of the Imperial lineage, and it wouldn’t be the first time one of them inherited.
There are several options which the committee is considering. One is the permit female sucession. This would allow the current daughter of the crown prince to obtain the throne and resolve the issue. There have been a few empresses historically, but most (all?) were regents. This option is more popular with younger Japanese, and not surprisingly, especially with younger women.
Another option would be to restore one of the cadet lines. However, that would place a third cousin, at a minimum, on the throne.
> [@](#):
>
> The American occupation (1945-1952) saw a dramatic reduction in the number of Imperial Family members. The 1946 Constitution of Japan (in effect from May 3, 1947) formally abolished the peerage. A revised Imperial Household Law (promulgated on January 15, 1947 and in effect from May 3, 1947) narrowed the legal definition of the Imperial Family (koshitsu) to legitimate descendants of an emperor in the legitimate male line, excluding any females who marry outside of the family and their descendants. These provisions meant, in effect, that only the immediate family of Emperor Shōwa (excluding his married daughter, the former Princess Teru) and those of his three brothers – Prince Chichibu (1902-1953), Prince Takamatsu (1905-1987) and Prince Mikasa (1915-present) – would have imperial status. SCAP decreed that effective October 14, 1947 the 11 miyake would lose their imperial status. Their 51 members would become ordinary tax-paying citizens. On October 13, 1947, the newly reformed Imperial Household Council voted each princely family, except that of former Prince Yamashina Takehito (who had no dependents), a lump-sum payment from the civil list. The persons reduced to commoner status in 1947; their descendants are no longer members of the Imperial family. Many of them, however, maintain close ties with the Imperial Household. See Living Heads of Former Imperial Branch Families
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/31 "2005-08-02T04:28:11Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#):
>
> Some liberals, including many school teachers are opposed to the system, the school districts are haivng a running battle with teachers who refuse to stand during the Japanese national anthem, Kimigayo
The courts in Japan, IIRC, are on the teachers’ side for that as the national law prohibits forcing people to participate in that display. The Tokyo government, OTOH, evidently couldn’t care less about the teachers’ and students’ rights.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/32 "2005-08-02T04:28:42Z")
Oops. Hit the wrong button. :smack:
Because of the distance to the next available male, I believe there will be more presure for the law to be revised to allow female succession.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/33 "2005-08-02T04:33:32Z")
They might want to be very careful about how they write that law, then. Just a week or so ago, the last prince of Korea’s former royal family died. I think his mother was a Japanese princess; or it could’ve been his grandmother. In any case, permitting people to “marry into” the royal family (becoming contenders for the throne) might allow a non-Japanese to ascend to the throne.
BTW, there was an interesting discussion over the term “ascend” when the current emperor went through that ceremony. The term itself was one issue and state funds being spent on the Shinto rite was another.
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### Author:  [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/34 "2005-08-02T06:39:02Z")
That doesn’t seem to be an option, although this wasn’t always [the case](http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,20409-1615280,00.html) .
“At one time, Japanese regarded the people of Korea as lower than us,” Professor Toike said. “For such people, it is difficult to accept that the Imperial Family is descended from Korea.”
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### Author:  [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)
#### Post date: [August 2, 2005, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-maintain-the-imperial-system/315081/35 "2005-08-02T13:17:40Z")
> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> I remember some people refering to a similar nonsense in some other country I forgot the name of. “One nation under god” or somesuch. And apparently, as ludicrous as it obviously is, some of the citizens were _actually_ concerned about this silly sentence.
In the US concept you cite, we are submitting ourselves to the will of God, not receiving His especial favor. So they are not the same.
Still, there are fundies in the US that think of this country as a “holy nation,” favored by God to rule the world.
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