# Why manual transmission in expensive cars? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 17, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375 "2004-12-17T17:28:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/41 "2004-12-19T02:50:11Z")
> [@zippyh](#): > > But the MB SLR is a half million dollar exotic. They make a lot of noise about using F1 technology in it. It strikes me as odd that they didn’t put an F1 style SMG transmission in it too. I dunno, I wasn’t in those meetings. 😉 Perhaps what’s best for an F1 transmission doesn’t lend itself well to what amounts to a Grand Touring car? Or in softening the F1 to allow for quiet around town driving it limits it’s lifespan? Or maybe they had an already developed part on the shelf that they could re-purpose for the task. There are a LOT of issues in car design, beyond ultimate racing tech. ---
**Author:** ![Claudio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Claudio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claudio)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/42 "2004-12-19T03:56:53Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Am I getting more than just a hint of snottiness from **Claudio** here? He’s out to prove his case that his choice in transmissions is the only smart one, and everyone else is deluded. He’s not listening to any of the fine arguments being made. Yeah, I noticed that I was getting snotty. Sorry. In my OP, I offered many reasons for having manual transmission. And in my second post, I mentioned the option of a Tiptronic-type transmission. I should have emphasized this point more. The question for me isn’t whether standard transmission can offer benefits over an automatic. Of course it can. But how many drivers can really extract those benefits when driving on roads and highways rather on a track? It seems that some posters are arguing that they get greater control with manual, and that seems like a weak argument, given that most drivers don’t use a manual transmission optimally, and that there are so many fine triple-mode transmissions available that offer control and the option to have the tranny make the decisions. What seems to be the real benefit of a manual is just the satisfaction that comes from doing something that you enjoy doing. Short and simple. What really got me started on my “snotty” streak were two types of comments: 1. that manual transmission is a better way of “letting off steam” and getting a “little boost of adrenaline”. This comes across like a macho excuse for driving dangerously, which you can do with a Tiptronic, or a full automatic. In any case, there other ways of achieving the same objective without putting other people at risk. 2. that purchasers of expensive cars want the greater control that comes with standard transmission. This argument was raised more than once and is simply not true. People who like a manual tranny just like it, regardless of how much they spend on a car. I offered many examples of expensive cars that come with automatic, and rich people are buying them, and driving them. Are the car manufacturers deliberately ignoring a huge portion of the affluent market? > [@](#): > > An automatic transmission simply doesn’t give you as much control over the vehicle. For example, in a car with a small turbo engine, to get responsiveness you want to hold the revs up. Not just under full acceleration, but when going around corners, lane changing, etc. In an auto, your revs are going to be wherever the curve of the tranny is set. Is it possible that the engineers who designed the tranny knew that and took it into account? > [@](#): > > When you add a touch of gas going around the corner, you can just feel the car settle in and hug the track. It’s a great, addictive feeling. Addictions are often a sign of _loss_ of control … And I guess you’re using “track” to refer to the car’s path, rather than a race track. > [@](#): > > And you don’t have to be driving like a maniac to ‘get it’. Just driving around in the city with a nicely set up, manual sports car allows you this level of control. Well, you’re lucky. I guess you have few cars and pedestrians in your city. > [@](#): > > In an automatic, that is much more difficult… There are very good auto transmissions out there, but they still take the decision away from the driver, and making your own decisions is part of the fun of driving. What about a Tiptronic? > [@](#): > > I’m sure that if I sat in the passenger seat and let Mario Andretti drive me around town, he’d do it better than I can. But I wouldn’t enjoy it as much as driving myself. Actually, I doubt that he would do it better than you can. Driving around town (with several lanes of traffic, a wide variety of vehicles, pedestrians, and traffic lights) has little in common with racing Indy cars. > [@](#): > > You’re going to have a hard time finding a real sports car enthusiast anywhere who prefers an automatic to a manual Sorry, but this thread wasn’t supposed to be about “real sports car enthusiasts”. It was about drivers of expensive cars. > [@](#): > > It’s because we recognize that manual transmission cars offer a very different driving experience, and it’s one we prefer. Good point. But not the argument that most other posters were presenting. In fact, some of them came across as “manual tranny” snobs. But I didn’t always take the high road … 😃 Thanks for your comments. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/43 "2004-12-19T06:33:20Z")
**Claudio,** until you’ve learned to drive a manual transmission and can do it reasonably well, I think it’s going to be hard for you to grasp the appeal of the darn thing. The only way I can describe it is that it gives me (the driver) a better, more thorough, _feel_ for the road. No automatic transmission can do that, because (as others have noted) automatic trannies are simply gas=go, brake=stop, leftrightleft. Statements like “you can downshift an automatic any time you like” _completely_ miss the point. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/44 "2004-12-19T07:36:06Z")
“Brisk!” “No! Nestle’s!” “No, Brisk!” “Wait a second, I thought this supposed to be about Coke vs. Pepsi?” “_NO!_ It’s Dr. Pepper!” You can’t easily compare auto trannies to manuals anymore. A GM Powerglide was a poop of a transmission compared to just about any stick, but things have changed. Now there are many varieties. I’ve been driving now for 37 years and most of that has been spent with a stick (including a few sporty jobs). And, I enjoy driving. My current car (BMW 740iL) has an “auto” that I can shift if I want to, but I think it does at least as good a job as I’d do on its own. It’s very responsive, and unlike auto trannies of the past, if I have it in gear it does not move until I give it some gas. The point of that is to say that the “feel” **rj** refers to, of which I know from my many years in clutchmobiles, is in fact there. _But_, that’s not your Nissan Sentra auto tranny. Nor is it the auto in my mother’s turbo Volvo, which slugs around like auto trannies of the past. I was a stick driver for many years, and preferred that, but the current high end automatics are fine with me. If I was still shopping on the low end, I’d probably try to stay with a stick. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/45 "2004-12-19T09:41:45Z")
> [@Claudio](#): > > The question for me isn’t whether standard transmission can offer benefits over an automatic. Of course it can. But how many drivers can really extract those benefits when driving on roads and highways rather on a track? > > It seems that some posters are arguing that they get greater control with manual, and that seems like a weak argument, given that most drivers don’t use a manual transmission optimally, and that there are so many fine triple-mode transmissions available that offer control and the option to have the tranny make the decisions. I can. I’ve been driving manuals for over twenty years, and you don’t have to be a racing driver, just a moderately experienced one, to extract far more control and power from a manual than an automatic: see my earlier post about driving on narrow, winding roads. You seem to be implying that in everyday cars, as opposed to expensive sportsters, buyers who choose manual over automatic are forced into it for reasons of price. Far from it: I, and a lot of other people I know, deliberately choose manuals over automatics just because of the greater power and control they offer. Your suggestion, incidentally, that this somehow makes us reckless hoons, loud, fast, and out for cheap and dangerous thrills, is more than slightly condescending. I consider manuals safer than automatics because, and this is the last time I’m going to type this, THEY OFFER MORE DRIVER CONTROL. ---
**Author:** ![groo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@groo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/46 "2004-12-19T14:08:20Z")
I repeat Colophon’s (and others’) opinions: What’s wrong with just preferring a manual transmission? I’ve been driving manual transmissions for so long that when I have to drive an automatic, the **driving experience is creepy**. Are you saying that when I decide to plunk down $60K for a nice car, I have to accept an unsettling and irritating driving experience? Why do you hate freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/47 "2004-12-19T14:53:07Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > I consider manuals safer than automatics because, and this is the last time I’m going to type this, THEY OFFER MORE DRIVER CONTROL. Yes, because having one hand shifting and one hand steering gives you more control than having both hands on the wheel? I’ve driven manuals ever since I was 8 (dirtbike), and when I bought a car, it was a 5-speed, so I’m not biased against the manual transmission. I feel much more in control when I’ve got both hands steering than when I have one on the shifter. So, in the grand tradition of the SDMB, let’s see a cite for manuals being involved in fewer accidents per mile driven than automatics. Yes, for many people, manuals are more fun and offer an enhanced driving experience (good enough reason to buy one), but let’s not claim their safer until we have data backing it up. Since expensive cars are often bought for the fun factor, you’ll see a lot of manuals. Cheaper cars are bought more for convenience/utility so you’ll get more automatics. ---
**Author:** ![Aagramn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Aagramn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aagramn)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/48 "2004-12-19T15:06:26Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Yes, because having one hand shifting and one hand steering gives you more control than having both hands on the wheel? I’ve driven manuals ever since I was 8 (dirtbike), and when I bought a car, it was a 5-speed, so I’m not biased against the manual transmission. I feel much more in control when I’ve got both hands steering than when I have one on the shifter. > > So, in the grand tradition of the SDMB, let’s see a cite for manuals being involved in fewer accidents per mile driven than automatics. I get around this problem by almost never changing gear when I’m on a corner. I can see the corner coming, so I change to the correct gear before I get there. I’d be very suprised if anyone can show either transmission is safer, as the overwhelming factor in safe driving is the attitude of the driver. I’ve heard it said that there are no statistics to show that cars with ABS are safer than those without. ---
**Author:** ![Claudio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Claudio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claudio)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/49 "2004-12-19T15:52:45Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Statements like “you can downshift an automatic any time you like” completely miss the point. Unfortunately, you missed the context of my comment, which was in direct response to this: > [@](#): > > wanted a stick-shift but I couldn’t get one. I felt like a passenger in that car. It changed gear at random, it couldn’t anticipate hills (this was in California, including driving the Pacific Coast Highway) - where I would be changing down on the approach to a hill in order to maintain speed, the auto would only shift down once it started labouring up a hill. It was harder to control going down hills, too, because the engine braking wasn’t there. Colophon is suggesting that he was at the mercy of an uncontrollable transmission. I just pointed out that he had some control. > [@groo](#): > > Are you saying that when I decide to plunk down $60K for a nice car, I have to accept an unsettling and irritating driving experience? Why do you hate freedom? I not saying that you \*have to \* accept anything. Am I suggesting that they outlaw manual transmission, or that we write to all the car manufacturers and insist that they offer only automatics? Sheeesh! If anything, I’m talking about \*more \* freedom, the freedom not to have to shift on your own, if that’s what you choose to do. You don’t have that choice with a manual transmission. You do with a Tiptronic-type transmission, which, from the comments in this thread, it appears that very few of you have ever driven, and even fewer have driven expensive cars. (FWIW, I’ve driven many, including a Porsche 911 Turbo, Mercedes SL600, and BMW 760iL. And I drove a manual for 14 years. And I’ve been to advanced driving school (skidpad and track) where they had manual and automatic.) I’m not saying that everyone should be driving an automatic. I offered many benefits for manual in my OP. But, the arguments that many posters have offered in this thread are weak, especially if you’re comparing a manual to a Tiptronic-type transmission. ---
**Author:** ![Aagramn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Aagramn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aagramn)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/50 "2004-12-19T18:04:39Z")
> [@Claudio](#): > > But, the arguments that many posters have offered in this thread are weak, especially if you’re comparing a manual to a Tiptronic-type transmission. Specifically, which arguments do you feel are weak? Could you summarise please? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/51 "2004-12-19T19:40:11Z")
> [@Claudio](#): > > I’m not saying that everyone should be driving an automatic. I offered many benefits for manual in my OP. Yes, and the one based on personal preference you passed over as if it weren’t relevant. Let’s be clear, the people buying \>$60,000 cars are not making choices based on anything but personal preference. Most all cars in that price range are going to be high quality, with excellent performance characteristics, regardless of the transmission or brand. You’re going to drop that kind of dough on a Porsche, you’re going to choose transmission based on which one pleases you more, not on which one has the best performance data, or any other objective measurement. You’re certainly not going to say “Gee, the base price is $83K, but it goes WAY up to $86K with the tiptronic, I’ll just go with the 6 speed to save a few bucks.” ---
**Author:** ![Claudio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7cd45c/32.png) [@Claudio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claudio)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/52 "2004-12-19T23:41:31Z")
> [@Aagramn](#): > > Specifically, which arguments do you feel are weak? Could you summarise please? Sure. 1. **Guessing why people buy expensive cars** : a. I think it’s because people who are going to buy an expensive car are more likely to be car enthusiasts, b. it’s because people who splash a lot of cash on a car want to feel like they’re in control of the damn thing. c. No one buys a $100,000+ car without enjoying their time in a car. When money is not the object why not buy what you like? For most of these people, the car is for enjoyment, not transportation. d. Basically, having active control of your gear is as much of driving a car as using the gas and brake. If you’re just buying a run of the mill car, who cares? If you’re buying something nice, you want it. e. The OP talks about changing gear as if it were a boring chore, unnecessary in an expensive automobile, but if I were paying top dollar for a sports car, I’d want something I could make DANCE. f. Are you saying that when I decide to plunk down $60K for a nice car, I have to accept an unsettling and irritating driving experience? Unless the poster has actually purchased an expensive car (or has done a survey of purchasers of expensive cars) then he is not qualified to give reasons for why people buy expensive cars. I cited many examples of expensive cars that come with automatic, many of which are available only with automatic. Obviously the purchasers of these cars have their own reasons for choosing automatics. 1. **Ridiculous analogy:** a. It’s like \ buying a huge widescreen television and then using a rabbit-ears aerial. Or buying a top-end stereo system and hooking it up to market-stall speakers. Performance numbers show that there is little difference in performance between manual and auto in high-end cars. 1. **Irrelevant statistic:** a. that more than 80% of cars sold in Western Europe are manual. So? The thread is about expensive cars, not average cars. Also, (as I specified in my second post and later) it’s about cars that have a triple-mode automatic (like a Porsche Tiptronic). 1. **Irrevelant and unsubstantiated comments** : a. Don’t forget that a lot of that stuff is being marketed to Americans. b. Why do you hate freedom? So?? And huh?? 1. **Lack of knowledge of the latest transmission technology:** a. Yes, some automatics allow for manual shifting, but many of them give you a “high” and “low” gear setting, when there are really 4 or more gears to choose from. Some of the “autostick” type transmissions are notably inferior to the manual transmissions. b .The rotary engine doesn’t really start pulling hard until about 3500-4000 rpm, and I have a feeling that the auto would shift too early to really have fun. If I’m driving it for fun I keep the revs up in the 6000-8000 rpm range. High-end transmissions do not have these deficiencies. 1. **Unsubstantiated claim of greater safety:** a. Being in control, really in control, of a powerful piece of machinery is great fun. I consider manuals safer than automatics because, and this is the last time I’m going to type this, THEY OFFER MORE DRIVER CONTROL. There is no reason given why “more driver control” results in greater safety. What you “consider” is of marginal importance, unless you can back up your claim. 6)\*\* Hormonal reasons\*\*: a. Even with a commuter car, some of us like to get a little fun out of the drive home from time to time. . .a little spirited driving after leaving the office to blow off some steam, dig? b. Besides, to a lot of people, driving is about bonding with the car and the road. I guarantee you, even in commuter traffic, if you want to you can find several opportunities to give yourself that little boost of adrenaline by downshifting and punching it. I guess machismo is one reason why men buy expensive powerful cars. Also, the illusion that they are good drivers. (Simple statistics: How many drivers are above average?) And why is standard transmission required to “blow off some steam” or get a “little boost of adrenaline”? Would you rather have a manual Civic or an automatic 600SL? In any case, I can’t argue against whatever thrill someone gets from a particular experience. Actually, bouv has nailed it: > [@](#): > > I’m saying that some people like manual transmissions. > > Sometimes, it’s cause they want to feel in control, other times it’s for performance, and other times it’s cause they just plain like the manual better. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/53 "2004-12-19T23:59:06Z")
> [@Aagramn](#): > > I get around this problem by almost never changing gear when I’m on a corner. I can see the corner coming, so I change to the correct gear before I get there Or, to put it another way: if you learn to drive properly, you know how to change gears at the right time. > [@Claudio](#): > > (Simple statistics: How many drivers are above average?) It’s simple to know how many are above the median. Above average is a lot more complex. 😛 > [@](#): > > Irrelevant statistic: > a. that more than 80% of cars sold in Western Europe are manual. Can you give us a statistic that shows a greater proportion of automatic transmissions for high-end cars in Europe? If not, and if that’s not the case, then this is not an irrelevant statistic. ---
**Author:** ![zippyh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/839c29/32.png) [@zippyh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zippyh)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/54 "2004-12-20T00:08:50Z")
Claudio, in that other thread asking what people drive, you state you have a 2004 540i. How’d you manage that? I thought 2003 was the last year for the 540i (e39 style). 2004 has the 545i (e60). At least that’s how it is in the USA. Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375/55 "2004-12-20T00:42:40Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Or, to put it another way: if you learn to drive properly, you know how to change gears at the right time. You really shouldn’t be changing gears mid-corner, anyway. It upsets the balance of the car, and can be dangerous if you’re driving on low-traction surfaces (one reason I prefer manuals, because they stick to the gear you want.) But **Claudio** , you’re right. There is absolutely no advantage I can tell between driving a Tiptronic vs a standard manual. Hell, F1 drivers drive clutchless trannies, too. They’re just not very fun to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-manual-transmission-in-expensive-cars/280375.md?page=2)