# Why Mark Antony? Why is no other Roman name Anglicised? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 29, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591 "2021-07-29T16:05:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/1 "2021-07-29T16:05:15Z")
The historical individual know as Marcus Antonius is remembered in English as Mark Atomy. Why is his name anglicised when most other historical Roman names aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/2 "2021-07-29T16:13:28Z")
I’m guessing Shakespeare has something to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/3 "2021-07-29T16:13:30Z")
Good question - can we blame Shakespeare, or is he a WIlly-come-lately to this issue? Why do we have both Julius and Julian (the adjective) as proper names? Why is there no more anglicized form of this name than “Brutus”? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/4 "2021-07-29T16:15:46Z")
This article suggests that in the vocative case (which you’d use to address Marcus), “Marcus Antonius” sounds a lot like “Mark Antony” > **[r/AskHistorians - Why is Marcus Antonius' name commonly anglicized to Marc...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1sxmub/why_is_marcus_antonius_name_commonly_anglicized/)** > > 23 votes and 17 comments so far on Reddit ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/5 "2021-07-29T16:16:29Z")
The other names are pronounced differently from the Latin, though. Some names, like Octavian, are also anglicized. (Gaius Octavius was posthumously adopted as Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus, meaning Julius Caesar from the family of Octavius. His enemies refused to use his new name.) Octavian is often referred to as Augustus. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/6 "2021-07-29T16:21:10Z")
Missed the edit window. I grabbed the names of a couple of emperors: Julian: **Flavius Claudius Julianus** Juvenal: **Decimus Junius Juvenalis** If a name ends in “an” it’s probably anglicized. And in fact, in Latin there was no letter J or U, so even Julius Caesar is slightly anglicized. (It would have been G. IVLIVS CAESAR.) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/7 "2021-07-29T16:49:41Z")
The last king of Rome, _Lucius Tarquinius Superbus_, is usually called Tarquin in English. Other Anglicized names, some of which OP may have heard of: - Octavian - _Gaius Octavius Thurinus_ (later _Caesar Augustus_) - Vespasian - _Vespasianus_ - Domitian - _Domitianus_ - Trajan - _Traianus_ - Hadrian - _Hadrianus_ - Diocletian - _Diocletianus_ - Maximian - _Maximianus_ - Constatine - _Constantinus_ - Justinian - _Iustinianus_ ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/8 "2021-07-29T16:56:59Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > so even Julius Caesar is slightly anglicized The pronunciation of Caesar is also anglicized. The German word Kaiser (emperor) comes from Caesar and is closer to the original pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/9 "2021-07-29T17:01:58Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Gaius Octavius was posthumously adopted as Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus, meaning Julius Caesar from the family of Octavius. My Latin is a bit rusty, and Roman names can be quite complicated, but I don’t think that “Octavius” would be a family name in any sense. It just means “Eighth child”. “Caesar” and “Julius” were both family names (Julius being a subset of Caesar). “Gaius” is completely a given name. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/10 "2021-07-29T17:09:48Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Marcus Antonius is remembered in English as Mark Atomy Did he have anything to do with health food, skin care or cosmetics? [Atomy](https://global.atomy.com/menu.es?mid=a10101000000) ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/11 "2021-07-29T17:30:31Z")
Octavius’s name was **Gaius Octavius Thurinus** and the Thurinus was given to him after birth (but before Caesar adopted him). In that case, Octavius is his nomen, not praenomen. I think it’s a bit like giving someone the last name of John instead of Doe or Smith. He was part of the gens Octavia, so not a first name. ---
**Author:** ![ALOHA\_HATER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@ALOHA\_HATER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ALOHA_HATER)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/12 "2021-07-29T19:45:39Z")
No, it doesn’t mean eighth child. Why would they have only Quintus through Decimus, and none for the first four children? How many families had nine or ten children that survived infancy? One well-argued theory I heard is that in old times, these names reflected the month in which the child was born. So a boy born in March would be called Marcus, and so on. Born spring, named after a god, born in fall, named after a number. By the Classical era, the month connection was in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/13 "2021-07-29T20:20:33Z")
> [@ALOHA\_HATER](#): > > No, it doesn’t mean eighth child. Why would they have only Quintus through Decimus, and none for the first four children? You mean Primus, Secundus, Tertius, and Quatrius? They do show up here and there. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/14 "2021-07-29T20:43:29Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > In that case, Octavius is his nomen, not praenomen. I think it’s a bit like giving someone the last name of John instead of Doe or Smith. He was part of the gens Octavia, so not a first name. Roman names were a bit weird to begin with, but this part is not unusual for them. Ceasar was similarly Gaius _Julius_, which was also not an uncommon name - and Julius started out as, and is still today, a first name for many people. Actually, it probably was a reasonably common first name outside of the narrow cultural elite. According to Roman custom one’s friends and relatives would normally have used the Praenomen, but others would use more formal address. It would be quite normal for two different people, depending on their relationship, to address the same individual differently. Part of the reason for this was that Romans evidently had the bizarre habit of re-using only a handful of Praenomen, so that simply distinguishing two males in the same household might get rather confusing without using the Nomen. Although most Classical cultures didn’t use anything like the complex naming schemes of the Romans, the re-use of names was rather common, much to the irritation of historians. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/15 "2021-07-29T20:49:59Z")
I would personally not try to anglicise people’s names, Roman or not, so I would write Marcus Antonius, Cicero, etc., but I believe you are mistaken and plenty of anglicization is going on, whence Terence, Horace, Tully, Martial, etc. ---
**Author:** ![ALOHA\_HATER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/76d3ee/32.png) [@ALOHA\_HATER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ALOHA_HATER)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/16 "2021-07-29T20:55:12Z")
Where? I haven’t seen them. ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/17 "2021-07-29T21:26:53Z")
A famous one :Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus aka Pline the young and I think there is a Tertius somewhere in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/18 "2021-07-30T11:14:42Z")
And we Anglicize all the classic Italian/Roman city names (Roma, Firenze, Torino, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![its\_the\_daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bb73d2/32.png) [@its\_the\_daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/its_the_daddy)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/19 "2021-07-30T11:44:57Z")
Of course, Pope Adrian IV’s name was not anglicised: He was English! He was Latinised as Adrianus. Previous Adrians were anglicised versions of something else (for instance, Adrianus III was a Roman, born Agapitus And of course, he wasn’t born Adrian. His name was Nicholas Breakspear. [Pope Adrian IV - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Adrian_IV) ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2021, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591/20 "2021-07-30T12:10:13Z")
I am utterly without any education in Latin, but I seem to recall from my choirboy days that a “C” followed by a vowel is pronounced “Ch” which would render _Caeser_ as something similar to _Sheisser_ in German. Not that that I am judging the man, of course. He seemed OK in the Asterix and Obelix comics. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-mark-antony-why-is-no-other-roman-name-anglicised/947591.md?page=2)