# Why Ms Clinton instead of Mrs Clinton? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683 "2019-10-12T16:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/1 "2019-10-12T16:46:52Z")
Politics aside, why the tendency to write it (and say it, as far as I know) Ms instead of Mrs? I routinely see it used either way. For instance, “Kearson: Why do you think Ms. Clinton is unelectable?” [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=21911669](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=21911669) Did she get divorced and I missed it, or is the prefix no longer a determiner of marital status? Upon rereading the question before I post it, or _is_ it politics? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/2 "2019-10-12T16:50:49Z")
First Ms. is not a determiner of Marital Status. It is not associated with divorced. It is either at the choice of the person being addressed or a good neutral address if unsure of the persons status or preference. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/3 "2019-10-12T16:51:23Z")
It’s probably her preference. Standard procedure is to do what the person wants. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/4 "2019-10-12T16:51:33Z")
“Mrs.” defines a woman by her marital status; in this instance it casts an implied shadow of Bill over her. “Ms.” is neutral and makes marital status irrelevant. As it should be. Sent from my LG-M150 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/5 "2019-10-12T17:05:55Z")
Ms. is the correct term, with no marital status implied. Even the stanch old gray lady The New York Times uses it, causing Gloria Steinman to quip “I’ll no longer be referred to as Miss Steinman of Ms. magazine.” ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/6 "2019-10-12T17:10:12Z")
So in her case it _is_ probably politics. Ok, I can understand that. Outside of her is this a new thing with other women? I’m feeling horribly old right now. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/7 "2019-10-12T17:12:05Z")
I’ve been “Ms.” since 1976. So have most women I know. Marital status is nobody’s casual business. This is not at all new. It’s over 40 years old in the US. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/8 "2019-10-12T17:13:14Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > So in her case it _is_ probably politics. Ok, I can understand that… That isn’t what we said. Please try rereading the responses. Your assumptions about Miss, Mrs. & Ms. are just not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/9 "2019-10-12T17:16:20Z")
It’s been the preferred term for a couple of decades at least. Why should a person’s title have anything to do with their marital status? In any professional correspondence I have pretty much always used Ms. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/10 "2019-10-12T17:19:33Z")
**HeweyLogan** , do you understand what “Miss” means in front of a woman’s name? Do you understand what “Mrs.” means? “Ms” has been the term in place to encompass both of those other terms for a very long time, more than a generation. Are you truthfully unaware of this? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/11 "2019-10-12T17:21:15Z")
What decade is it? Today one of the protesters at the women’s health clinic started talking about the “girls” going into the clinic. I asked him “Are you going to refer to the black security guard as a ‘boy’?” To which the guard replied “I don’t think you want to do that.” ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/12 "2019-10-12T17:22:51Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > So in her case it _is_ probably politics. Ok, I can understand that. > > Outside of her is this a new thing with other women? > > I’m feeling horribly old right now. Just how old are you? The term Ms. was promoted starting in the 1960s and 1970s. The U.S. Government Printing Office approved its use in official documents in 1972 and even The New York Times adopted the word in 1986. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/13 "2019-10-12T17:26:02Z")
I’ve been using ‘Ms.’ by default for decades unless I had reason to think she preferred ‘Mrs. or Miss.’ (Recently I confess to sometimes using ‘Miss’ online, almost flirtatiously, e.g. in Mafia Games, even when I know or suspect the woman is married. Is this harassment? or otherwise proscribed?) What of women who retain their maiden surname? ‘Mrs. Surname’ is then misleading; is it wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/14 "2019-10-12T17:30:10Z")
Yes. If a woman keeps her given birth name, or uses it in addition to her husband’s name (like Hillary Rodham Clinton), use Ms. And any other time, Ms. is also correct. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/15 "2019-10-12T17:32:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > … > > What of women who retain their maiden surname? ‘Mrs. Surname’ is then misleading; is it wrong? Why would it be wrong? She is just choosing to let people know she is married. Now if someone just decided to add Dr. in front of their name that is wrong and misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/16 "2019-10-12T17:39:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Why would it be wrong? According to the old-fashioned “traditional usage,” it would be: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Mrs was most often used by a woman when married, in conjunction with her husband’s first and last names (e.g., Mrs John Smith). A widow was and still is addressed with the same title as when she was married. Mrs was rarely used before a woman’s first name, her birth name, or a hyphenated surname her husband was not using. For example, Mrs Jane Smith, Mrs Miller (wife of John Smith), or Mrs Miller-Smith were considered incorrect by many etiquette writers, especially of the early 20th century. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/17 "2019-10-12T17:40:19Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > Politics aside, why the tendency to write it (and say it, as far as I know) Ms instead of Mrs? > > I routinely see it used either way. For instance, “Kearson: Why do you think Ms. Clinton is unelectable?” > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=21911669](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=21911669) > > Did she get divorced and I missed it, or is the prefix no longer a determiner of marital status? > > Upon rereading the question before I post it, or _is_ it politics? I think at one point it meant “divorced” but now it simply means “female”, without any connotation concerning her marital status. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/18 "2019-10-12T17:42:25Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > According to the old-fashioned “traditional usage,” it would be: Yes, but we’re now in the early 21st Century and the rules have changed. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/19 "2019-10-12T17:43:14Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > I think at one point it meant “divorced” but now it simply means “female”, without any connotation concerning her marital status. It NEVER meant divorced. It was simply a neutral honorific meaning neither married nor single. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/20 "2019-10-12T17:49:30Z")
It means “female,” as opposed to “Mr.” which means “male.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683.md?page=2)