# Why Ms Clinton instead of Mrs Clinton? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683 "2019-10-12T16:46:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/41 "2019-10-12T21:03:08Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > According to tradional rules, Mrs. John Smith would continue to be Mrs. John Smith if she became a widow. She became Mrs. Mary Smith if she divorced (to the relief of any new Mrs. John Smith). This all changed once the term Ms. came into being. Yes. The way to remember this was “Don’t take away the widow’s memory of her departed husband and don’t remind the divorcee of her ex.” ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/42 "2019-10-12T21:08:46Z")
Once we go to M. or Mx., why use it at all? I might enjoy being called Professor Doktor Frau Professor Doktor S. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/43 "2019-10-12T21:21:53Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > In which case the default for Clinton would be Mrs, unless there’s other reasons to use Ms, as was stated upthread, to distance herself from Mr Clinton, in which case it’s proper/polite to say Ms. No, still not quite there. I used to own a couple of newspapers. Standard procedure in such a case is to use whichever the subject is known to prefer. Looking at her wiki - I would in no way encourage you to use The Washington Examiner as a reliable citation - it appears that for a long spell she preferred to just be referred to as ‘Hillary Clinton’ or ‘Hillary Rodham’ or ‘Hillary Rodham Clinton’ at various times. But in 2015 she requested that she be referred to as just ‘Hillary Clinton’. > [@](#): > > As of 1993, she had not legally changed her name from Hillary Rodham.[109] Bill Clinton’s advisers thought her use of her maiden name to be one of the reasons for his 1980 gubernatorial re-election loss. During the following winter, Vernon Jordan suggested to Hillary Rodham that she start using the name Clinton, and she began to do so publicly with her husband’s February 1982 campaign announcement to regain that office. She later wrote, “I learned the hard way that some voters in Arkansas were seriously offended by the fact that I kept my maiden name.”[110] Once he was elected again, she made a point of using “Hillary Rodham Clinton” in work she did as first lady of the state.[82] Once she became first lady of the United States in 1993, she publicly stated that she wanted to be known as “Hillary Rodham Clinton”.[109] She has authored all her books under that name. She continued to use that name on her website and elsewhere once she was a U.S. senator.[111] When she ran for president during 2007–08, she used the name “Hillary Clinton” or just “Hillary” in campaign materials.[111] She used “Hillary Rodham Clinton” again in official materials as secretary of state.[112] As of the 2015 launch of her second presidential campaign, she again switched to using “Hillary Clinton” in campaign materials;[112] in November 2015 both the Associated Press and The New York Times noted that they would no longer use “Rodham” in referring to Clinton, with the Times stating that “the Clinton campaign confirmed … that Mrs. Clinton prefers to be simply, ‘Hillary Clinton’”. In other words, it is her choice and reputable media outlets will use whichever she’s known to prefer. This ties in well with a Straight Dope column from 1986 on the spelling of [Moammar Quaddafi’s last name](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/513/how-are-you-supposed-to-spell-muammar-gaddafi-khadafy-qadhafi/). In the end, of course, once it was known he had a preferred spelling and usage, most wire services began using that. But barring any clarity it’s anyone’s game. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/44 "2019-10-12T21:27:49Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Once we go to M. or Mx., why use it at all? > > I might enjoy being called Professor Doktor Frau Professor Doktor S. I think maybe to cover those circumstances where the person’s first name is unknown. Referring to Chris Smith as M. Smith or Mx. Smith seems more respectful than as simply Smith. I’m old enough to remember when Ms. was first proposed. For quite a few years I’d correct people who used the Miss or Mrs. honorific by saying, “It’s Ms. Middon.” Which frequently was replied to with, “Oh, you’re one of those _women’s libbers_.” It’s impossible to overstate the amount of scorn in some of those voices. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/45 "2019-10-12T21:37:11Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > It means “female,” as opposed to “Mr.” which means “male.” Older male. When I was a kid “Master” was used in formal settings for male children. I’m not sure when the cutoff was since I never had the opportunity to find out for anyone near 18. Had nothing to do with marriage. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/46 "2019-10-12T21:43:08Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I think maybe to cover those circumstances where the person’s first name is unknown. Referring to Chris Smith as M. Smith or Mx. Smith seems more respectful than as simply Smith. That makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/47 "2019-10-12T22:45:45Z")
I _think_ that, in those cases where “master” is used for a young man, the cutoff is when he’s still living in the same household as his father. That way, you can distinguish between Mister Smith, the father, and Master Smith, the son. Once the son moves out, or the father dies, Smith Jr. is now the master of the household, and so ceases to be “Master”, and becomes “Mister”. But I also think that the period when there was such a distinction was probably pretty short, since “Mister” is itself a variant form of “Master”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/48 "2019-10-12T22:46:05Z")
> [@HeweyLogan](#): > > As a child of the late 70’s early 80’s, that’s my experience/exposure to the prefix. I grew up in the same time period. It has never meant “divorced,” but my personal exposure to it was such that it was mostly divorced women who kept their married names that used it around here, so I can understand the misunderstanding. Googling, it seems many people share that misapprehension, so it’s not an uncommon mistake. But, no, it’s always been explained to me that it was just a marital-status-neutral way of referring to a woman, much in the way that “Mr.” does not indicate marital status. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/49 "2019-10-12T22:58:21Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > \*Technically, the correct title for a male under age 18 is _master_, though it’s seldom used now. 12-18. In the US. And I’ve only ever seen lawyers do it. As I understand it, Ms. is preferred because it removes the element of marital ownership from the address. It basically says, “Look, babe, I have no interest in your marital status. It’s business time.” But it still attaches gender. The only alternative I’ve seen in professional correspondence has been to just go for the first name (Dear Pat.) which is too familiar for my taste. Is there another genderless alternative out there? So many nits are getting picked in this thread we can make nit jelly! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/50 "2019-10-12T23:07:48Z")
In academia, the default for someone you don’t know is “Dr.”. It’s often correct, it avoids gender issues, and even if it’s wrong, it’s very unlikely that anyone will be offended by it (but some folks might be offended by the lack of it). ---
**Author:** ![kayT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayt/32/3633_2.png) [@kayT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/51 "2019-10-12T23:11:09Z")
> [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > I’m old enough to remember when Ms. was first proposed. For quite a few years I’d correct people who used the Miss or Mrs. honorific by saying, “It’s Ms. Middon.” > > Which frequently was replied to with, “Oh, you’re one of those _women’s libbers_.” It’s impossible to overstate the amount of scorn in some of those voices. Yeah, my reply to those scornful remarks was usually “Damn straight, Charlie.” Might as well set the record straight about who you are right away. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/52 "2019-10-12T23:13:06Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Is there another genderless alternative out there? Comrade. It’s a perfectly good word that fits well with the current zeitgeist. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/53 "2019-10-12T23:15:02Z")
When I was in college in the early '70s I had an internship at a local daily (a small one). I lobbied hard for the use of “Ms.” rather than “Mrs.” in all cases. (Yes, I still thought I knew better than anyone, just so we’ve got that out of the way.) So in one of the issues I worked on there is a group of women who are identified as “Ms. John Smith,” “Ms. George Jones,” and so on–which is the wrong, wrong way to use it, and whoever wrote that caption knew it. Really pissed me off. ETA: But within a couple of years they were doing it the right way so I won in the end. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/54 "2019-10-12T23:24:14Z")
As someone who is British and (I reluctantly suppose is) middle-aged, the whole matter is slightly baffling. For I cannot remember the last occasion when I ever used Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms **on anything**. Arguments about the correct usage is, at this point, surely irrelevant. You might as well be wondering about whether to append “Esquire” (even if [some people](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/29/jacob-rees-mogg-language-rules) do insist). ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/55 "2019-10-12T23:30:52Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Comrade. > > It’s a perfectly good word that fits well with the current zeitgeist. Or, _tovarishch_, if we want to go with the original Russian. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/56 "2019-10-12T23:46:20Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > As someone who is British and (I reluctantly suppose is) middle-aged, the whole matter is slightly baffling. For I cannot remember the last occasion when I ever used Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms **on anything**. Maybe you never have to message a complete stranger in a business or professional context. In such cases it’s still safer to start an e-mail with a Mr. or Ms. until you’ve received a reply, especially if it might be someone older. Especially among older African-Americans it ca pay to be extra polite until you’ve established a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![HeweyLogan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heweylogan/32/547_2.png) [@HeweyLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeweyLogan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/57 "2019-10-12T23:47:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s a matter of convention, but I think that using “Mrs.” still implies that the surname used is that of the husband. If a woman is using her own maiden name, it is more common to use Ms. This is what I thought. > [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > There’s a move for Mx. (pronounced məx) as a gender neutral. Holy crap. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > No, still not quite there. I see that. > [@nelliebly](#): > > I’m glad you’re getting edumacated. 🙂 Agreed. Thanks to everyone’s input. I vow to be more accurate in the future on its use. * * * > [@Anny\_Middon](#): > > For quite a few years I’d correct people who used the Miss or Mrs. honorific by saying, “It’s Ms. Middon.” > > Which frequently was replied to with, “Oh, you’re one of those _women’s libbers_.” It’s impossible to overstate the amount of scorn in some of those voices. This made me laugh. I distinctly remember that too. Both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2019, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/58 "2019-10-12T23:50:06Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Once we go to M. or Mx., why use it at all? Because there are still a few situations and people for whom a certain degree of formality is called for. I wouldn’t address someone about a job as “Jim” or “Smith” until we have established a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/59 "2019-10-13T00:02:07Z")
> [@bibliophage](#): > > According to the traditional rules of etiquette, she is (at least in her professional life) neither Ms. nor Miss nor Mrs. Clinton, but **Senator** Clinton. Some titles are used for life, even after leaving office (e.g., Senator, Ambassador, Judge, General); others are only used while in office (e.g., Secretary, Governor). She was also Secretary of State, so Secretary Clinton would also be correct. Ether could be used, to avoid the arguments about which outranks the other: SoS is a single, national office, but it’s appointed vs. Senator being elected by thousands of voters in your state. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Off topic, but I once met a woman who once gave a talk in Vienna and was introduced as > Professor Doktor Frau Professor Doktor Doktor P\_\_\_ because she was a professor with a doctorat and married to a professor with two doctorats. Honorifics gone mad. Decades ago, I helped maintain a mailing list for an international computer language group. We decided that we would maintain only the addressees name, no titles. Long enough ago that our data base was limited; data entry was done on punched cards. That turned out to be a contensious decision; most of our group was academic, many from locations where these titles were important, and they didn’t like not using the full, correct title. (We used to get overseas change-of-address notices going from Associate Professor John Smite to Assistant Professor John Smith – at the same address.) > [@nelliebly](#): > > \*Technically, the correct title for a male under age 18 is _master_, though it’s seldom used now. If I see it now, I need to decide if it’s an antiquated format for a male child under 18 or for someone into a sexual fetish most decidedly not for a child under 18! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683/60 "2019-10-13T00:05:55Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Ms. is the correct term, with no marital status implied. Even the stanch old gray lady The New York Times uses it, causing Gloria Steinman to quip “I’ll no longer be referred to as Miss Steinman of Ms. magazine.” It’s SteinEM, not Steinman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-ms-clinton-instead-of-mrs-clinton/841683.md?page=4)